why i'm voting republican.... (not)

[PaulC]

http://imvotingrepublican.com/

;)

[festivalgirl]

http://imvotingrepublican.com/

;)

got this today .... brilliant!!

[PaulC]

got this today:
-----------------------------------------------------------------
14:59 Senate blocks tax breaks for wind and solar energy follow-up

As mentioned at 14:52, Bloomberg reports the Senate Republicans for the second time in a week blocked a tax measure to renew dozens of tax breaks, including a business research credit and incentives to develop wind, solar and other renewable energy sources. Republicans objected that the legislation would boost other taxes to avoid increasing the federal deficit. The 52-44 vote was short of the 60 votes needed in the Senate to move forward on the legislation. The vote was a repeat of one taken June 10 and continues the debate over whether Congress should approve popular business tax cuts even if they add to the deficit.
----------------------------------------------------------------

the less than brilliant right wing stays their course......

they "rush" to give the top 1% huge tax breaks hoping they will share their riches,.. but they "fight" to prevent expanding on the absolute need to help foster the creation of U.S. jobs centered around an alternative energy sector that will not only employ Americans,.. but produce a healthier planet.... Profits for all ain't the right wing mantra.....

[Moon]

This is hardly news. The Repubs have supported "the Haves" since the 20's. They could give two fucks about the poor or working class.

[PaulC]

This is hardly news. The Repubs have supported "the Haves" since the 20's. They could give two fucks about the poor or working class.

true enough,.. but one would think that sooner or later their false claims to superior morality,.. their reliance on the religion business,.. and calling themselves 'conservatives",.. might move a few of them to attempt to conserve gods green planet....

and the kicker here is,.. alternative energy is going to come,.. and it's going to prove green in more ways than one,.. jobs,.. profit,.. good for one and all.... maybe the so called leader of the free world and his minions should help lead.....

[Moon]

true enough,.. but one would think that sooner or later their false claims to superior morality,.. their reliance on the religion business,.. and calling themselves 'conservatives",.. might move a few of them to attempt to conserve gods green planet....

and the kicker here is,.. alternative energy is going to come,.. and it's going to prove green in more ways than one,.. jobs,.. profit,.. good for one and all.... maybe the so called leader of the free world and his minions should help lead.....

George Bush couldn't lead a children's choir. I just hope things improve over time so one day we can thank him for screwing everything up so much there was no other choice.

[freebo]

First off: Moon baby, what was the NOPD's reply? ;)

Second: I believe what we need is a national-level challenge much like the Apollo program. The goal would be to achieve independence from imported oil, in the span of a decade. The means would be the development of renewable, clean, accessible, and affordable energy source(s).

The technologies and techniques could/would then be licensed world-wide, hopefully for a modest profit.

Now I know this is VERY general, and heck - this ain't the right venue for discussin' it anyway.* But, it IS a vision of the future. And that's what our leaders seem to be missing these days: Strategic vision. A plan. Heck: they seem to need a frickin' CLUE.

And yes, we have to deal with the here and now: it's the only time that matters. But darn it all: Why isn't there someone in power who cares enough to set our course in the right direction, instead of sticking us with the same old paradigms?!

Sigh...

I have a healthy, well-founded pessimism in regards human nature. We are brutish and often cruel. But, I also have enormous hope in the inventive nature of the American people. Our can-do spirit is real, and it runs deep. Let's harness it for the power of good. How difficult would that be? Isn't that what leaders are SUPPOSED to do? Lead the people?

Grrr....

*Note to PaulC: Missed ya last Friday, big guy. Good times at the ol' Skipperdome. Keep in touch.

[Doubledown]

Trickle-down economics :( John Mcbush:rolleyes: Barack Obama:cool: IMO

[revjimk]

Problem is that too many Dems either lack balls or are also corrupted by financial ties.
Whats up with this "Need for 60 votes"? 51 is a majority. Just pass the friggin legislation & dare Lil W to veto it.
One of the few intelligent things Nixon ever said was that over reliance on polling has caused a lack of leadership. Rather than saying, "This is what I believe in, vote for me or not" all these pols check the polls first & then compete to jerk off the electorate.
Publicly funded elections would probably help. You get what you pay for. If fat cats finance both parties, they own both parties.
rev

[chicagomike]

This is hardly news. The Repubs have supported "the Haves" since the 20's. They could give two fucks about the poor or working class.
You honestly think Democrats are any different ?

[McGregor]

let's get back to music, ughh politics.
:confused:

[swag]

Whats up with this "Need for 60 votes"? 51 is a majority. Just pass the friggin legislation & dare Lil W to veto it.


I think Senate rules require 60 votes to end debate on a bill and bring it up for a vote.

To override a veto actually takes 2/3, or 67 votes.

[swag]

You honestly think Democrats are any different ?

There are other parties, besides the Dems and the GOP.

Most notably, the Libertarians and the Green Party. Check 'em out.

[Frosty]

There are other parties, besides the Dems and the GOP.

Most notably, the Libertarians and the Green Party. Check 'em out.

Not in Illinois, the Democrats made sure of that (must be looking out for the little people):



Three Green Party candidates removed from ballot

By David Beery | Daily Herald StaffContact writerPublished: 6/10/2008 12:03

The field of candidates narrowed in three suburban congressional districts Monday as the Illinois Board of Elections bumped Green Party candidates off the November ballot.

The board ruled in favor of petitioners who filed objections against 8th Congressional District candidate Iain Abernathy of Round Lake Beach, 10th District candidate David Kalbfleish of Arlington Heights, and 14th District candidate Robert Hill of DeKalb -- all of whom the party had slated after the state's Feb. 5 primary.

In each case, the election board agreed with objectors who said the Greens failed to follow legal procedures in slating their candidates.

More specifically, attorneys for the objectors argued that the Green Party failed to elect any precinct committeemen from key counties during the February primary, a requisite first step in the process of slating candidates. In Abernathy's case, objectors also argued for disqualification because he tried to run as a Moderate Party candidate in the primary before being removed from that ballot.

But Andrew Finko, an attorney representing five Green candidates in board of election hearings, said objectors can file challenges on virtually no evidence.

"The concern is that any person can file a short, one-paragraph objection that challenges the other party's nomination, effectively shifting the burden to that party to prove that everything was done properly," Finko said. "Objectors are doing this when they have no basis in fact on which to raise the allegations."

Finko said he and his clients have not decided whether to appeal.

Patrick Kelly, Illinois Green Party media committee chairman, said: "We've come to expect this type of thing from the Democrats who, despite their names, are out to end democracy in Illinois. They'll never stop until they can win every election without competition, apparently."

Candidates remaining on the ballot for the districts in question are Democratic incumbent Melissa Bean and Republican challenger Steve Greenberg in the 8th; Republican incumbent Mark Kirk and Democratic challenger Dan Seals in the 10th; and Democratic incumbent Bill Foster and GOP challenger Jim Oberweis in the 14th.

The 8th District covers western Lake County, part of Northwest Cook and a small portion of McHenry County. The 10th covers eastern Lake County and parts of Northwest Cook. The 14th stretches west from the West suburbs, extending nearly to the Mississippi River.

[texasyokel]

Wasn't there a Politics thread on the old board that turned into the hugest buzzkill ever in the history of the world and made everyone promise not to talk politics on the bored? Just asking to make trouble : )

[Fred (Texas JF Fanatic)]

let's get back to music, ughh politics.
:confused:

thank You!!!!!!!

[chicagomike]

There are other parties, besides the Dems and the GOP.

Most notably, the Libertarians and the Green Party. Check 'em out.

I am well aware of the other parties. As Frosty alluded to.the Donkeys are just as eager to line their own pockets as the Elephants.

[chicagomike]

As for a political thread or two ... I say why not ? Big election year. We are all reasonable adults.

[festivalgirl]

let's get back to music, ughh politics.
:confused:

plenty of music talk out there ...... just not in here.

[Amy Winette]

If we don't have some political talk in an election year, well, I think that's almost irresponsible of us as citizens! Nah, not really, it's all whatever is your bag, but nixing any political talk in an election year is too much, like it's always been said, if you don't like the topic of the post, don't read it . . .

[PaulC]

I believe what we need is a national-level challenge much like the Apollo program. The goal would be to achieve independence from imported oil, in the span of a decade. The means would be the development of renewable, clean, accessible, and affordable energy source(s).

The technologies and techniques could/would then be licensed world-wide, hopefully for a modest profit.

And that's what our leaders seem to be missing these days: Strategic vision. A plan. Heck: they seem to need a frickin' CLUE.

And yes, we have to deal with the here and now: it's the only time that matters. But darn it all: Why isn't there someone in power who cares enough to set our course in the right direction, instead of sticking us with the same old paradigms?!

Sigh...

I have a healthy, well-founded pessimism in regards human nature. We are brutish and often cruel. But, I also have enormous hope in the inventive nature of the American people. Our can-do spirit is real, and it runs deep. Let's harness it for the power of good. How difficult would that be? Isn't that what leaders are SUPPOSED to do? Lead the people?

great post my friend....

you enjoyin' the lightin' this mornin??....

[PaulC]

You honestly think Democrats are any different ?

are there any differences????........

this story has made the rounds for a few years now,.. and is probably known by all,.. but it needs to be reconsidered as often as needed when people question if there are any differences between the two major parties........
-----------------------------------------------------------------------

Joe gets up at 6 a.m. and fills his coffeepot with water to prepare his morning coffee. The water is clean and good because some tree-hugging liberal fought for minimum water-quality standards. With his first swallow of water, he takes his daily medication. His medications are safe to take because some stupid commie liberal fought to ensure their safety and that they work as advertised.

All but $10 of his medications are paid for by his employer's medical plan because some liberal union workers fought their employers for paid medical insurance - now Joe gets it too.

He prepares his morning breakfast, bacon and eggs. Joe's bacon is safe to eat because some girly-man liberal fought for laws to regulate the meat packing industry.

In the morning shower, Joe reaches for his shampoo. His bottle is properly labeled with each ingredient and its amount in the total contents because some crybaby liberal fought for his right to know what he was putting on his body and how much it contained.

Joe dresses, walks outside and takes a deep breath. The air he breathes is clean because some environmentalist wacko liberal fought for the laws to stop industries from polluting our air.

He walks on the government-provided sidewalk to subway station for his government-subsidized ride to work. It saves him considerable money in parking and transportation fees because some fancy-pants liberal fought for affordable public transportation, which gives everyone the opportunity to be a contributor.

Joe begins his work day. He has a good job with excellent pay, medical benefits, retirement, paid holidays and vacation because some lazy liberal union members fought and died for these working standards. Joe's employer pays these standards because Joe's employer doesn't want his employees to call the union.

If Joe is hurt on the job or becomes unemployed, he'll get a worker compensation or unemployment check because some stupid liberal didn't think he should lose his home because of his temporary misfortune.

It is noontime and Joe needs to make a bank deposit so he can pay some bills. Joe's deposit is federally insured by the FSLIC because some godless liberal wanted to protect Joe's money from unscrupulous bankers who ruined the banking system before the Great Depression.

Joe has to pay his Fannie Mae-underwritten mortgage and his below-market federal student loan because some elitist liberal decided that Joe and the government would be better off if he was educated and earned more money over his lifetime. Joe also forgets that his in addition to his federally subsidized student loans, he attended a state funded university.

Joe is home from work. He plans to visit his father this evening at his farm home in the country. He gets in his car for the drive. His car is among the safest in the world because some America-hating liberal fought for car safety standards to go along with the tax-payer funded roads.

He arrives at his boyhood home. His was the third generation to live in the house financed by Farmers' Home Administration because bankers didn't want to make rural loans.

The house didn't have electricity until some big-government liberal stuck his nose where it didn't belong and demanded rural electrification.

He is happy to see his father, who is now retired. His father lives on Social Security and a union pension because some wine-drinking, cheese-eating liberal made sure he could take care of himself so Joe wouldn't have to.

Joe gets back in his car for the ride home, and turns on a radio talk show. The radio host keeps saying that liberals are bad and conservatives are good. He doesn't mention that the beloved Republicans have fought against every protection and benefit Joe enjoys throughout his day. Joe agrees: "We don't need those big-government liberals ruining our lives! After all, I'm a self-made man who believes everyone should take care of themselves, just like I have."

-------------------------------------------------------------------------

big differences mike,.. BIG.......................

[Amy Winette]

I haven't seen that before Paul, liked it :)

[Frosty]

are there any differences????........

this story has made the rounds for a few years now,.. and is probably known by all,.. but it needs to be reconsidered as often as needed when people question if there are any differences between the two major parties........
-----------------------------------------------------------------------

Joe gets up at 6 a.m. and fills his coffeepot with water to prepare his morning coffee. The water is clean and good because some tree-hugging liberal fought for minimum water-quality standards. With his first swallow of water, he takes his daily medication. His medications are safe to take because some stupid commie liberal fought to ensure their safety and that they work as advertised.

All but $10 of his medications are paid for by his employer's medical plan because some liberal union workers fought their employers for paid medical insurance - now Joe gets it too.

He prepares his morning breakfast, bacon and eggs. Joe's bacon is safe to eat because some girly-man liberal fought for laws to regulate the meat packing industry.

In the morning shower, Joe reaches for his shampoo. His bottle is properly labeled with each ingredient and its amount in the total contents because some crybaby liberal fought for his right to know what he was putting on his body and how much it contained.

Joe dresses, walks outside and takes a deep breath. The air he breathes is clean because some environmentalist wacko liberal fought for the laws to stop industries from polluting our air.

He walks on the government-provided sidewalk to subway station for his government-subsidized ride to work. It saves him considerable money in parking and transportation fees because some fancy-pants liberal fought for affordable public transportation, which gives everyone the opportunity to be a contributor.

Joe begins his work day. He has a good job with excellent pay, medical benefits, retirement, paid holidays and vacation because some lazy liberal union members fought and died for these working standards. Joe's employer pays these standards because Joe's employer doesn't want his employees to call the union.

If Joe is hurt on the job or becomes unemployed, he'll get a worker compensation or unemployment check because some stupid liberal didn't think he should lose his home because of his temporary misfortune.

It is noontime and Joe needs to make a bank deposit so he can pay some bills. Joe's deposit is federally insured by the FSLIC because some godless liberal wanted to protect Joe's money from unscrupulous bankers who ruined the banking system before the Great Depression.

Joe has to pay his Fannie Mae-underwritten mortgage and his below-market federal student loan because some elitist liberal decided that Joe and the government would be better off if he was educated and earned more money over his lifetime. Joe also forgets that his in addition to his federally subsidized student loans, he attended a state funded university.

Joe is home from work. He plans to visit his father this evening at his farm home in the country. He gets in his car for the drive. His car is among the safest in the world because some America-hating liberal fought for car safety standards to go along with the tax-payer funded roads.

He arrives at his boyhood home. His was the third generation to live in the house financed by Farmers' Home Administration because bankers didn't want to make rural loans.

The house didn't have electricity until some big-government liberal stuck his nose where it didn't belong and demanded rural electrification.

He is happy to see his father, who is now retired. His father lives on Social Security and a union pension because some wine-drinking, cheese-eating liberal made sure he could take care of himself so Joe wouldn't have to.

Joe gets back in his car for the ride home, and turns on a radio talk show. The radio host keeps saying that liberals are bad and conservatives are good. He doesn't mention that the beloved Republicans have fought against every protection and benefit Joe enjoys throughout his day. Joe agrees: "We don't need those big-government liberals ruining our lives! After all, I'm a self-made man who believes everyone should take care of themselves, just like I have."

-------------------------------------------------------------------------

big differences mike,.. BIG.......................

Wow, no discussion of any of the consequences to those policies. I just LOVE one sided fantasy scenarios. You really got me at his father enjoying the union pension and social security to make for a comfortable retirement. Those are both unfunded retirement plans. Pension plans merely make a retiree an unsecured creditor to their former employer and social security means that if the government wants to give you a check, they ask you for the money to do so. Neither are assets on a personal balance sheet. Now, there is security for you.

[Michelino]

First off: Moon baby, what was the Nopd reply? ;)

Second: I believe what we need is a national-level challenge much like the Apollo program. The goal would be to achieve independence from imported oil, in the span of a decade. The means would be the development of renewable, clean, accessible, and affordable energy source(s).

The technologies and techniques could/would then be licensed world-wide, hopefully for a modest profit.

Now I know this is VERY general, and heck - this ain't the right venue for discussing' it anyway.* But, it IS a vision of the future. And that's what our leaders seem to be missing these days: Strategic vision. A plan. Heck: they seem to need a freakin' CLUE.



The plan is right here: http://www.ted.com/talks/view/id/51 . The technology exists....the reasoning is sound.

Yet our current national policy is a straight line dependency on foreign oil...as it has been since 2000. This is because much of the current administration's personal wealth was accumulated from oil industry profits, and other examples of crony capitalism...

[sophisticated sissy]

are there any differences????........


-----------------------------------------------------------------------

Joe gets up at 6 a.m. and fills his coffeepot with water to prepare his morning coffee. The water is clean and good because some tree-hugging liberal fought for minimum water-quality standards. With his first swallow of water, he takes his daily medication. His medications are safe to take because some stupid commie liberal fought to ensure their safety and that they work as advertised.

All but $10 of his medications are paid for by his employer's medical plan because some liberal union workers fought their employers for paid medical insurance - now Joe gets it too.

He prepares his morning breakfast, bacon and eggs. Joe's bacon is safe to eat because some girly-man liberal fought for laws to regulate the meat packing industry.

In the morning shower, Joe reaches for his shampoo. His bottle is properly labeled with each ingredient and its amount in the total contents because some crybaby liberal fought for his right to know what he was putting on his body and how much it contained.

Joe dresses, walks outside and takes a deep breath. The air he breathes is clean because some environmentalist wacko liberal fought for the laws to stop industries from polluting our air.

He walks on the government-provided sidewalk to subway station for his government-subsidized ride to work. It saves him considerable money in parking and transportation fees because some fancy-pants liberal fought for affordable public transportation, which gives everyone the opportunity to be a contributor.

Joe begins his work day. He has a good job with excellent pay, medical benefits, retirement, paid holidays and vacation because some lazy liberal union members fought and died for these working standards. Joe's employer pays these standards because Joe's employer doesn't want his employees to call the union.

If Joe is hurt on the job or becomes unemployed, he'll get a worker compensation or unemployment check because some stupid liberal didn't think he should lose his home because of his temporary misfortune.

It is noontime and Joe needs to make a bank deposit so he can pay some bills. Joe's deposit is federally insured by the FSLIC because some godless liberal wanted to protect Joe's money from unscrupulous bankers who ruined the banking system before the Great Depression.

Joe has to pay his Fannie Mae-underwritten mortgage and his below-market federal student loan because some elitist liberal decided that Joe and the government would be better off if he was educated and earned more money over his lifetime. Joe also forgets that his in addition to his federally subsidized student loans, he attended a state funded university.

Joe is home from work. He plans to visit his father this evening at his farm home in the country. He gets in his car for the drive. His car is among the safest in the world because some America-hating liberal fought for car safety standards to go along with the tax-payer funded roads.

He arrives at his boyhood home. His was the third generation to live in the house financed by Farmers' Home Administration because bankers didn't want to make rural loans.

The house didn't have electricity until some big-government liberal stuck his nose where it didn't belong and demanded rural electrification.

He is happy to see his father, who is now retired. His father lives on Social Security and a union pension because some wine-drinking, cheese-eating liberal made sure he could take care of himself so Joe wouldn't have to.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------



Where does "Joe" live, in Copenhagen? :) Socially speaking, we live in the most barbaric post-industrial country in the whole world. The U.S. is really backward when it comes to education, healthcare, and looking out for our elderly.

[chicagomike]

Big differences Paul ? I deal with politicians all the time. They are interested in two things no matter which side of the aisle they sit. 1. Getting elected 2. Raising money to get re-elected. You are living in a utopia if you think that so called "liberals" are any different then the evil so called "conservatives". They all talk out of both sides of their mouths. Once you figure that out, its a lot easier to deal with them. A good majority of them have good intentions... Initially. Then its more of the same old same old. I am a middle of the road guy. I am an AFL-CIO union member and contrary to popular belief there are a few labor-friendly Republicans out there. I didnt vote for our current president. I think he is an idiot. But dont think the dems are much better. Here in Illinois, we have a democratic governor, state senate and house majority. You know what ? NOTHING is getting done. Checks and balances.. Checks and balances.

[revjimk]

Nobody has to read this thread if they can't handle politics...
Paul C & Chicago Mike
I like your post, Paul.
Mike: He said "Liberals" not "democrats". There are a few heroic politicians, among the many selfish, career-oriented pricks. Kucinich!
Also, back during the Depression & the 60s, liberals had more balls.
These so-called "conservatives" are so full of shit. They love "free enterprise" & "free trade" & hate "the guvmint" till one of their crooked banks or brokerage firms get caught with their pants down & goes broke, then who do they go crying to? $500 billion Government bailouts & the taxpayers!!!
"get the guvmint off our backs"? Then they want the Feds to be able to read our e-mails, put us in jail with no rights, tell us what to smoke,etc.
The military that they love so much is the biggest "guvmint" program of all, along with its outrageous contracts to Bush & Cheney's pals in Halliburton,, KBR etc.
The only real conservatives are the Libertarians. The Republicans are "elected Fascists". Biggest deficit ever is "conservative"????
rev

[Lostcajun]

I love diversity of opinion. My thoughts are that both sides get the credit for the non-existent energy policy. With eight years of Clinton and eight of Bush and sixteen years of a do-nothing congress, regarding energy, we now find our country in a "oooooops missed the damned curve better get back on da road" situation.

I think promoting hatred and the demonizing of one side or the other is a way the politicians blow a smoke screen in our direction. If "they" can get us to think the other guy/gal/party will wreck our country then may be we won't really look at the track record of "they." I think "THEY" (both sides) should be held accountable for manipulating US and driving our wonderful country off the curve and into the ditch, or off the cliff as the case may be.

They take our hard earned money, and screw everything up, and they point to somebody else. I think it's time that we just look for leaders who want to lead instead of people who are full of BS.

[revjimk]

Lostcajun
As someone who has just "demonized the opposition" I have to agree with a lot of what you said. Both sides have totally dropped the ball on energy policy.
Publicly funded elections would have to help.
However, have you seen the article today where a retired General who investigated Abu Ghraib & Guantanamo directly accused the Bush administration of war crimes by approving torture?
Sorry, these guys "demonized" themselves.
If "Skull & Bones" isn't a Satanic cult, what is it? (yes, Kerry was a member too)
"demonization" is trying to impeach somebody for a blow job. Wouldn't you rather be blown than tortured?
rev

[revjimk]

Sophisticated Ssisy makes a good point too.
Sad truth is that Repub & Dem politicians have WAY more in common with each other than with any normal citizen.
This is whats called a "ruling class"
rev

[Lostcajun]

I was focusing on energy policy, not terrorism or Monica Lewinsky...

[mangoon]

I love how political party discussions always seem to come down to ""my side is the lesser of two evils". Totally guilty of it myself. It's comicial and sad at the same time. ;)

[Frosty]

Sophisticated Ssisy makes a good point too.
Sad truth is that Repub & Dem politicians have WAY more in common with each other than with any normal citizen.
This is whats called a "ruling class"
rev


Funny but I don't see it as a ruling class as much as pandering to the masses. In effect, we get what we want. War in Iraq, fossile fuel based energy, McDonalds. Don't complain about politicians for giving us what we want.

[Lostcajun]

And I'm not trying to stay safely in the middle. Really, I'm not. Honestly, I think we can look at most of the issues and find both have failed on most policies. In private they pols act like buddies; in public, they act like contenders. In the mean time they do their best to keep us all confused.

[Lostcajun]

I don't think complaining will do either. There needs to be an authentic movement that includes people from a variety of opinions who want to the government to be BETTER. I think it's our fault because we believe them people who continue to lie to us. I think it's their fault because they are either just screwing everyone, or are failing to follow their principles that they supposedly campaigned on.

Believe me I would like to believe in someone who is leading, but I just don't believe most are following their principles. Are the greens pols really green? Or the conservatives really conservative, are the liberals really liberal? I think this is like designer labels who are marketing to people who want to believe in the label, but all the clothes are made somewhere in some third world country by the same people using mostly the same material. The main difference is the price tags. wow, I sound cynical....

[Lostcajun]

This is the reason I LOVE MUSIC!!!!!!!!

[PaulC]

Funny but I don't see it as a ruling class as much as pandering to the masses. In effect, we get what we want. War in Iraq, fossile fuel based energy, McDonalds. Don't complain about politicians for giving us what we want.

jeez louise frosty,.. that is one broad brush....

i can absolutely assure you that many of my friends,.. and with all certainty my family in particular,.. were never ever part of the "we" who wanted war...

the bushies put on a road show to sell that war,.. and far too many people bought that rotten lyin' bill of goods... this house was always against that war... it was disgustin' watchin' cheneys crowd wrap themselves in the blood stained flags of 9/11 to accomplish their pre planned goals of invadin' iraq... that was all too easy to see through... their dirty deeds continued at full speed when they never stopped in their attempt to paint any and all who dared oppose their tactics as unpatriotic... all manner of filthy dirty games were perpetrated by those oil lovin' chicken hawks,.. and sadly,.. the masses were swayed,.. but they were mislead in every way.... personally i tend to not do mass well....

we drive two very efficient smaller cars,.. a civic,.. and a prius... 50 mpg with the latter,.. and greatly reduced tail pipe spew.... we conserve water and energy the best we can,.. have anear chemical free yard,.. by far create the least amount of trash in the hood,.. recycle,.. don't litter,.. and we do not honor the golden calf with our business.... have much of our retirement funds invested in alternative energy plays... may be out in the cold there...


man,.. are we cool............. :o

[PaulC]

This is the reason I LOVE MUSIC!!!!!!!!


that's called conservin' your energy for the good stuff in life........

[jerseygirl67]

that's called conservin' your energy for the good stuff in life........

How do we report spam on here? there's a new user abcd521 who is posting some really inappropriate stuff

[saturn]

Click on that little triangle with the exclamation mark in the upper right corner to report spam.

I have reported the newest nuisance already. :mad:

[jerseygirl67]

Click on that little triangle with the exclamation mark in the upper right corner to report spam.

I have reported the newest nuisance already. :mad:

Cool! Thanks!

[PaulC]

Big differences Paul ? I deal with politicians all the time. They are interested in two things no matter which side of the aisle they sit. 1. Getting elected 2. Raising money to get re-elected. You are living in a utopia if you think that so called "liberals" are any different then the evil so called "conservatives". They all talk out of both sides of their mouths. Once you figure that out, its a lot easier to deal with them. A good majority of them have good intentions... Initially. Then its more of the same old same old. I am a middle of the road guy. I am an AFL-CIO union member and contrary to popular belief there are a few labor-friendly Republicans out there. I didnt vote for our current president. I think he is an idiot. But dont think the dems are much better. Here in Illinois, we have a democratic governor, state senate and house majority. You know what ? NOTHING is getting done. Checks and balances.. Checks and balances.


mike,.. i can't resist...

first,.. hope all is well for you and yours....

in all sincerity,.. i am very glad to know that there are a "few labor-friendly republicans out there"...

politics are a dirty game,.. a game that sucks in so many ways... but i can tell you that from my life experiences,.. it's the right wing that seems to fan the biggest flames and drag the discourse into the dirt... and sadly there is all too big an audience for the right wing attack dogs who fill the radio waves with an "us against them" mentality... while some of the crap they fling is supposedly meant to entertain,.. the ditto heads of the world follow along all to compliantly... i have not experienced dems behavin' with quite the same fervor in life... dems have plenty of the happy type of fervor though... i.e. i would tend to guess that most peeps at jazz fest slant to the left more so than the otha' way.....

this is real easy stuff to get my head around... we mostly have two parties to choose from in elections... kinda wish there were more so the extremes were forced father right and left,.. but we the people generally have two to choose from... personally,.. i am going to side with the guy/gals who aren't in bed with right wing operatives... it's real simple,.. people much smarter than i have suggested that our home of homes,.. this green and livin' planet of ours,.. needs to consider some real conservin'... it needs protection from the right wing bushies who faked some supposed moral advantage to gain access to power,.. power once gained they set about doin' their very best to conserve the established order,.. which is most certainly out of order presently...

it's said that america uses far more of the worlds resources than our population numbers warrant... we all know that's true.... we owe it to the world to get some things straightened out... creatin' efficient means of alternative energy honestly should be our obligation at this point... creates jobs too....

watchin' republican ceo's send jobs overseas seems to spread the wealth,.. but it actually only enriches a select few... a guy named jesus,.. whose good deeds are used and abused by all manner of right wing preachers and zealots,.. seemed to favor the meek and poor,.. as does the statue of liberty.....

'Give me your tired, your poor,
Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free,
The wretched refuse of your teeming shore.
Send these, the homeless, tempest-tossed to me."

back to that dude with that love your brother vibe,.. he favored the poor,.. so hey,.. sendin' poorer nations payin' jobs is cool... but that's not the goal... gettin' around environmental regulations is the goal... pleasin' wall st. is the goal... cuttin costs by payin' minimal wages is the goal.... cuttin' costs while rasin' ceo pay to obscene levels is the goal,.. always enough in the wall st. well to over serve the rich.... and then they go lookin' for tax cuts while we are at war... what a great circle jerk for the select few.... those few are mostly republicans... coincidence???...

you say some republicans favor labor,.. i would imagine there may even be more than a few republicans who actually cringe every time they see their party march out their trusted anti-poor and anti-gay lil' tricks to get the vote out... and those anti-people of color innuendos... right wing classics every time.... and railin' against big gov't and then forcin' your way into the private lives of americans has to bother a few people with a conscience....

and as for your local pols,.. they didn't drop the ball and forget to finish the job in afghanistan...

your local pols didn't forget to pursue the real villians of 9/11 by castin' their gaze at all the war revenue that going into iraq could bring their good friends in big oil and weapon sales.... nothing like killin' tens of thousands of innocent civilians to convince the world we americans have our shit together.... i can assure you that your local do nothing dems didn't spearhead that preplanned war against a country that had no history of attackin' us... we did have a history with them,... as they took plenty of money and weapons from rumsfeld and cheney when they picked a side against iran.... it's reported we shipped them chemical weapons that they later used against their own people... they got a hand slap from reagan...


more light readin' about what the "do something" right wing has accomplished...

http://usliberals.about.com/od/homelandsecurit1/a/IraqNumbers.htm

i'm not actually a religious person,.. but i know in my heart what that man known as jesus wouldn't do.... i'm pretty sure he wouldn't vote with those who favor big oil and big business over all else.....

[PaulC]

How do we report spam on here? there's a new user abcd521 who is posting some really inappropriate stuff

why did you aim that my way???....

[breambob]

why did you aim that my way???....

TY, Paul. best giggle I've gotten reading through this thread so far

;)

[Doubledown]

Ok back to the Music http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wKsoXHYICqU&feature=related ;)

[Doubledown]

I love diversity of opinion. My thoughts are that both sides get the credit for the non-existent energy policy. With eight years of Clinton and eight of Bush and sixteen years of a do-nothing congress, regarding energy, we now find our country in a "oooooops missed the damned curve better get back on da road" situation.

I think promoting hatred and the demonizing of one side or the other is a way the politicians blow a smoke screen in our direction. If "they" can get us to think the other guy/gal/party will wreck our country then may be we won't really look at the track record of "they." I think "THEY" (both sides) should be held accountable for manipulating US and driving our wonderful country off the curve and into the ditch, or off the cliff as the case may be.

They take our hard earned money, and screw everything up, and they point to somebody else. I think it's time that we just look for leaders who want to lead instead of people who are full of BS.

Very well said, I Think W. Churchill said "If you're not a liberal when you're young, you have no heart. If you're not a conservative when you're old, you have no brain," I believe people think with their emotions and Backwards Rationalization their decisions IMO. I will alway vote for the best man......... as long as he is a Democrat.

[windowman]

What follows below is an overview of legislation being voted on tomorrow in the Senate. As it comes from the Wall Street Journal, there is no indication that the original legislation in 1978 provided for unauthorized wiretaps of up to eleven days in times of dire emergency. Our current government, and by that I mean both parties, are putting this over on us because the telecom lobby is powerful enough to buy everyone on both sides of the aisle and they will get retroactive immunity for their collusion/participation in violating our rights under the fourth amendment. This is not the same country that I was born in and I am truly saddened by what direction the future is pointing to, regardless of who wins in November.


FISA Amendments Act of 2008
June 19, 2008 5:38 p.m.

Read a fact sheet on the FISA amendments, from the office of Sen. John D. Rockefeller IV, chairman of the Senate Intelligence Committee.

OVERVIEW

The Act provides critically important authority for the U.S. Intelligence Community to acquire foreign intelligence information by targeting foreign persons reasonably believed to be outside the United States. It ensures that the Intelligence Community has the flexibility and agility it requires to respond quickly to opportunities and needs within a global communication system.

The Act provides a key role for each branch of Government. It assigns responsibilities jointly to the Attorney General (AG) and the Director of National Intelligence (DNI) to ensure that the Nation's chief law enforcement and intelligence officials work together in collecting intelligence in accordance with law. It requires the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Court (FISA Court) to review and approve, or order corrections to, the procedures required by the Act and to ensure compliance with protections for Americans under the Fourth Amendment to the Constitution. And it requires that information about the implementation of these new procedures be reported to Congress, to ensure that Congress can fulfill its oversight role.

PRIVACY AND CIVIL LIBERTY PROTECTIONS FOR AMERICANS

Exclusivity. The Act strengthens the requirement that FISA and specific chapters of Title 18 are the exclusive means by which electronic surveillance and certain criminal law interceptions may be conducted. In addition to the statutes specifically listed in the exclusivity provision, the Act provides that only an express statutory authorization for electronic surveillance or interception may constitute an additional exclusive means for that surveillance or interception.

Targeting Procedures. Knowing if a target is outside the U.S. is key to the protection of Americans. At least annually, the AG and DNI must submit to the FISA Court for review and approval targeting procedures for making that fundamental determination which governs collection under this bill.

Minimization Procedures. Making sure that information that is acquired about Americans, in the course of targeting foreigners, is used only for proper intelligence or law enforcement purposes is a second line of defense for Americans. These procedures must be reviewed and approved at least annually by the FISA Court.

Individual Judicial Orders for Surveillance of Americans. The Act requires individual FISA Court orders based on probable cause for the targeting of Americans not only when they are within the U.S. but also, for the first time, when they are outside of the United States -- whether they are working, studying, or traveling abroad.

Reverse Targeting Guidelines. The Act requires adoption by the Attorney General and submission to the Congress and FISA Court of guidelines to ensure compliance with the Act's limitations, including its prohibition on reverse targeting.

TIMING OF COLLECTION AND JUDICIAL REVIEW

Timing of Judicial Review. The Act requires that the targeting procedures shall be submitted to and approved by the FISA court before the collection begins.

Exigent Circumstances. In rare cases, collection can begin while the court considers authorization only if the AG and DNI certify to the court that exigent circumstances exist and critical intelligence could be lost.

The AG and DNI must submit procedures within 7 days and the court would make a determination within 30 days. During this period, all relevant minimization and reverse targeting guidelines would apply.

LIABILITY PROTECTIONS AND OBLIGATIONS OF AMERICAN COMPANIES

Prospective Immunity. The Act ensures that the cooperation shall be in accordance with law, by providing an opportunity for the companies to challenge in court the lawfulness of directives to them and for the Government to compel compliance through judicial proceedings. Companies that act in accordance with directives provided under the law shall be protected against future liability.

Retroactive Immunity. The Act provides standards and procedures for liability protection for electronic communication service providers who assisted the Government between September 11, 2001 and January 17, 2007, when the surveillance program was brought under the FISA Court.

A district court hearing a case against a provider will decide whether the Attorney General's certification attesting that the liability protection standard has been met and is supported by substantial evidence. In making that determination, the court will have the opportunity to examine the highly classified letters to the providers that indicated the President had authorized the activity and that it had been determined to be lawful. The plaintiffs and defendants will have the opportunity to file public briefs on legal issues and the court should include in any public order a description of the legal standards that govern the order.

The immunity provision of the Act does not apply to any actions against the Government for any alleged injuries caused by government officials. Nor does the immunity provision involve any statement by the Congress, pro or con, on the legality of the President's program.

OVERSIGHT AND ACCOUNTABILITY

Inspector General Review. The Act directs the Inspectors General of the Department of Justice, the Office of the DNI, the National Security Agency, and the Department of Defense to complete a comprehensive review, within the oversight authority of each IG, of the President's Surveillance Program. In no later than a year, the Inspectors General shall submit a report to Congress; the report shall be unclassified but may include a classified annex. In light of the dismissals of cases that may result from implementation of the immunity title, the IG review will be an especially important vehicle for reporting to Congress on the facts of the President's program, as well as to the public, to the extent classification permits.

Multiple Levels of Oversight. The Act provides for multiple levels of oversight both within the Executive Branch, including by Department of Justice and Intelligence Community Inspectors General, and in regular reporting to both the Congress and the FISA Court.

Sunset. The Act will sunset at the end of 2012 ensuring that the next Administration, together with the Congress, will address whether the Act should be made permanent or modified based on experience.

[Lostcajun]

Thanks to everyone. I think this has been a very civil conversation, considering the topic. Decisions matter. Time matters. Leadership matters. Music matters, and it can unite us!!!!

[saturn]

Very well said, I Think W. Churchill said "If you're not a liberal when you're young, you have no heart. If you're not a conservative when you're old, you have no brain," I believe people think with their emotions and Backwards Rationalization their decisions IMO. I will alway vote for the best man......... as long as he is a Democrat.

I have always liked the expression "My heart is on the left, but I keep my wallet in my right pocket". I am socially very liberal, but do not believe that every solution requires throwing money at it. Of course, I am Canadian and the concepts of (small letters) liberal and conservative are quite different here.

[Frosty]

jeez louise frosty,.. that is one broad brush....

i can absolutely assure you that many of my friends,.. and with all certainty my family in particular,.. were never ever part of the "we" who wanted war...

the bushies put on a road show to sell that war,.. and far too many people bought that rotten lyin' bill of goods... this house was always against that war... it was disgustin' watchin' cheneys crowd wrap themselves in the blood stained flags of 9/11 to accomplish their pre planned goals of invadin' iraq... that was all too easy to see through... their dirty deeds continued at full speed when they never stopped in their attempt to paint any and all who dared oppose their tactics as unpatriotic... all manner of filthy dirty games were perpetrated by those oil lovin' chicken hawks,.. and sadly,.. the masses were swayed,.. but they were mislead in every way.... personally i tend to not do mass well....

we drive two very efficient smaller cars,.. a civic,.. and a prius... 50 mpg with the latter,.. and greatly reduced tail pipe spew.... we conserve water and energy the best we can,.. have anear chemical free yard,.. by far create the least amount of trash in the hood,.. recycle,.. don't litter,.. and we do not honor the golden calf with our business.... have much of our retirement funds invested in alternative energy plays... may be out in the cold there...


man,.. are we cool............. :o

It is not a broad brush. It is th way Democracy works. You may be against the war and drive efficient cars but enough others think we are fighting against Iraqi terrorists and that we are damn good Americans and have the freedom to drive what we want. You get people like Al Gore who win awards for a movie on the environment then live in a compound that is far more of an energy waster than the Bush compound in Texas. You can Snopes that if you'd like. In my world, there is no Rush Limbaugh, no NASCAR, no country music, no moments of silence in schools, no prayer before baseball games. People don't watch Fox news and I didn't realize anybody anywhere did. And before you make assumptions, we are represented by a Republican in Congress and are the home community for old guard conservatives Donald Rumsfeld, Chuck Percy and Charlton Heston. So, the fact is, even though you and I don't support these things, nor do the people in our circles for the most part, there are masses of people who do. Those are the people Hillary Clinton and the hordes of other Democrats, plus the Republicans catered to when they voted to invade Iraq. Those are the hordes of people that the politicians cater to when they hold price gouging hearings in Congress on the price of gasoline instead of telling people to walk, bike, buy smaller cars, or move to smaller homes closer to work. Those are the hordes of people who blame undocumented workers for their own failures and get the government to restrict LEGAL guest worker visas necessitating the use of undocumented workers for industries to survive. They are also the hordes of people saying f*** New Orleans and look how much more civilized Iowa is handling their flooding. You know, cause 1000 pigs don't loot quite like 100,000 starving people. And, the pigs aren't quite as dark either if you know what I mean. Those are the voters. The politicians merely cater to them, or lose before you ever know their name.

[Moon]

Anybody who thinks anything is going to change come November needs to read this:
http://www.rollingstone.com/politics/story/20961789/the_senate_caves
Until we vote out the bought up, we can expect the same old, same old.

[ohio]

Political Phrase of the Day:

Deja Moo
the certain feeling that you've heard this bullshit before :D

[Lostcajun]

Anybody who thinks anything is going to change come November needs to read this:
http://www.rollingstone.com/politics/story/20961789/the_senate_caves
Until we vote out the bought up, we can expect the same old, same old.

Wow....revealing article...

[dank_bass]

From the comments section [below] .... AMEN, rolling stone hasnt printed a worthwhile article in 20 years. The lopsidednesss of this article is parallel with Rush Limbaugh. Maybe we'll get along when both parties stop cheerleading their most ridiculous radical over-the-top members, and start thinking original thoughts

"What I find here is the appalling lack of journalistic ethics. I read about "Take the recent foreclosure bill, which Senate Democrats larded with $25 billion in corporate welfare, compared with just $9 billion for homeowners struggling to keep their homes" But I hear nothing of what "Corporate Welfare" is. . . Please tell me what constitutes "Corporate Welfare" or am I just supposed to believe the writer? In addition I read that renegotiating the terms of their mortgage is a luxury that the weatlthy already enjoy for their vacation homes. Please, please, oh please, first define the word "wealthy" and secondly tell me how this is only open to them. I could go on and on. This isn't a news article, it's an opinion peice and should have been labeled as such. It's pathetic journalism. Rolling Stone should be ashamed to have printed it."

[dank_bass]

This is hardly news. The Repubs have supported "the Haves" since the 20's. They could give two fucks about the poor or working class.

Show me a working class politician and I'll show you someone that gives a shit about the working class
R or D ... theyre all the same garbage

[PaulC]

good post frosty,.. you make more than a few fair points,.. agree with much you say,.. but if i may....

You may be against the war and drive efficient cars but enough others think we are fighting against Iraqi terrorists

jus' had to take up on this point.... people,.. who seem to lack sumthin' upstairs,.. believed that was a valid reason to wage war because the bushies spent so much time playin' connect the lyin' dots..... after the bushies started this war to placate their own agenda,.. only then did terrorists make their way into the lawless vacuum that bush/cheney themselves created in the new iraq... iraq was no terriost state,.. and they weren't there in numbers before the war started... saddam was a secular despot,.. he was no friend of religious fanatics...

the u.s. havin' started an unjust war,.. preplanned and conducted under the orders of bush/cheney,.. to this date,.. have killed many tens of thousands of innocent civilians... some estimates range to 600,000... many of those people have survivin' family members and friends who may now have a very serious vested interest in joinin' up with radicals that they may have previously had no sympathies with....

they seem to have long memories in the middle east,.. and the collective ill will that the u.s has created by the millions will be a bitch to deal with goin' forward.... that alone is reason enough to elect a man that might prove to the developin' world that we are not guided by deranged cowboys, oil, and military men.... that man is Barack Obama...

many people declare that all politicians are alike.... thankfully,.. that is not wholly true.... some are good people,.. some are not,.. and some are definitely far worse than others.... bush was a disaster in all too many ways...

his 1st months in office he set about undoin' 100's of protective evironmental measures that Clinton and others had put in place... havin' lost the popular vote and havin' promised to unite this country,.. he instead set about like he was a king with a clear mandate to crush those that opposed him... that cocky good ol' boy attitude of his was a sign of much bad to come...

the bush/cheney clan immediately went to work as bush rested on his ranch... he took more vacation days in his 1st 6 months than any other sittin' president ever.... and that was with all kinds of red flags in place in regards to possible terrorist threats.... we all know the guy isn't caable of understandin' anything,.. an he personally doesn't do squat,.. so maybe he had people at work doin' things other than linin' up his buddies to make hay in energy and the military,.. but for certain once we awoke to the the horror of 9/11,.. this fake man of god was given a chance to unleash his dogs,.. and he did... even though saudi nationals were behind 9/11,.. bush/cheney had other plans... the truth be damned,.. iraq was always their goal... and damn if we won't be payin' for their muiltitude of mistakes for many years to come...

all politicians are not alike... bush/cheney are not the norm... and the fact that there are people who still blindly support them is one crazy ass fact that the truth will evade some people forever....



IRAQI TROOPS, CIVILIANS & OTHERS IN IRAQ

Private Contractors in Iraq, Working in Support of US Army Troops - More than 180,000 in August 2007, per The Nation/LA Times.

Journalists killed - 129, 85 by murder and 44 by acts of war

Journalists killed by US Forces - 14

Iraqi Police and Soldiers Killed - 8,338

Iraqi Civilians Killed, Estimated - A UN issued report dated Sept 20, 2006 stating that Iraqi civilian casualties have been significantly under-reported. Casualties are reported at 50,000 to over 100,000, but may be much higher. Some informed estimates place Iraqi civilian casualities at over 600,000.

Iraqi Insurgents Killed, Roughly Estimated - 55,000

Non-Iraqi Contractors and Civilian Workers Killed - 552

Non-Iraqi Kidnapped - 306, including 57 killed, 147 released, 4 escaped, 6 rescued and 89 status unknown.

Daily Insurgent Attacks, Feb 2004 - 14

Daily Insurgent Attacks, July 2005 - 70

Daily Insurgent Attacks, May 2007 - 163

Estimated Insurgency Strength, Nov 2003 - 15,000

Estimated Insurgency Strength, Oct 2006 - 20,000 - 30,000

Estimated Insurgency Strength, June 2007 - 70,000

QUALITY OF LIFE INDICATORS

Iraqis Displaced Inside Iraq, by Iraq War, as of May 2007 - 2,255,000

Iraqi Refugees in Syria & Jordan - 2.1 million to 2.25 million

Iraqi Unemployment Rate - 27 to 60%, where curfew not in effect

Consumer Price Inflation in 2006 - 50%

Iraqi Children Suffering from Chronic Malnutrition - 28% in June 2007 (Per CNN.com, July 30, 2007)

Percent of professionals who have left Iraq since 2003 - 40%

Iraqi Physicians Before 2003 Invasion - 34,000

Iraqi Physicians Who Have Left Iraq Since 2005 Invasion - 12,000

Iraqi Physicians Murdered Since 2003 Invasion - 2,000

Average Daily Hours Iraqi Homes Have Electricity - 1 to 2 hours, per Ryan Crocker, U.S. Ambassador to Iraq (Per Los Angeles Times, July 27, 2007)

Average Daily Hours Iraqi Homes Have Electricity - 10.9 in May 2007

Average Daily Hours Baghdad Homes Have Electricity - 5.6 in May 2007

Pre-War Daily Hours Baghdad Homes Have Electricity - 16 to 24

Number of Iraqi Homes Connected to Sewer Systems - 37%

Iraqis without access to adequate water supplies - 70% (Per CNN.com, July 30, 2007)

Water Treatment Plants Rehabilitated - 22%

RESULTS OF POLL Taken in Iraq in August 2005 by the British Ministry of Defense (Source: Brookings Institute)

Iraqis "strongly opposed to presence of coalition troops - 82%

Iraqis who believe Coalition forces are responsible for any improvement in security - less than 1%

Iraqis who feel less ecure because of the occupation - 67%

Iraqis who do not have confidence in multi-national forces - 72%



Obama 101: Ending the Iraq War http://usliberals.about.com/od/homelandsecurit1/a/ObamaIrqWr.htm

Barack Obama's Stirring 2002 Speech Against Iraq War .... a must read....
http://usliberals.about.com/od/extraordinaryspeeches/a/Obama2002War.htm

[dank_bass]

And I'm not trying to stay safely in the middle. Really, I'm not. Honestly, I think we can look at most of the issues and find both have failed on most policies. In private they pols act like buddies; in public, they act like contenders. In the mean time they do their best to keep us all confused.

You should try the middle sometime ... its where things get accomplished, rather than lining everyone up as far left and right as possible and throwing stones at each other. have people forgotten how to compromise ... give up a little of what you believe in to achive something else ... how the hell could any country/goverment support what EVERYONE wants, it doesnt even makes sense!!

[Frosty]

good post frosty,.. you make more than a few fair points,.. agree with much you say,.. but if i may....



jus' had to take up on this point.... people,.. who seem to lack sumthin' upstairs,.. believed that was a valid reason to wage war because the bushies spent so much time playin' connect the lyin' dots..... after the bushies started this war to placate their own agenda,.. only then did terrorists make their way into the lawless vacuum that bush/cheney themselves created in the new iraq... iraq was no terriost state,.. and they weren't there in numbers before the war started... saddam was a secular despot,.. he was no friend of religious fanatics...

the u.s. havin' started an unjust war,.. preplanned and conducted under the orders of bush/cheney,.. to this date,.. have killed many tens of thousands of innocent civilians... some estimates range to 600,000... many of those people have survivin' family members and friends who may now have a very serious vested interest in joinin' up with radicals that they may have previously had no sympathies with....

they seem to have long memories in the middle east,.. and the collective ill will that the u.s has created by the millions will be a bitch to deal with goin' forward.... that alone is reason enough to elect a man that might prove to the developin' world that we are not guided by deranged cowboys, oil, and military men.... that man is Barack Obama...

many people declare that all politicians are alike.... thankfully,.. that is not wholly true.... some are good people,.. some are not,.. and some are definitely far worse than others.... bush was a disaster in all too many ways...

his 1st months in office he set about undoin' 100's of protective evironmental measures that Clinton and others had put in place... havin' lost the popular vote and havin' promised to unite this country,.. he instead set about like he was a king with a clear mandate to crush those that opposed him... that cocky good ol' boy attitude of his was a sign of much bad to come...

the bush/cheney clan immediately went to work as bush rested on his ranch... he took more vacation days in his 1st 6 months than any other sittin' president ever.... and that was with all kinds of red flags in place in regards to possible terrorist threats.... we all know the guy isn't caable of understandin' anything,.. an he personally doesn't do squat,.. so maybe he had people at work doin' things other than linin' up his buddies to make hay in energy and the military,.. but for certain once we awoke to the the horror of 9/11,.. this fake man of god was given a chance to unleash his dogs,.. and he did... even though saudi nationals were behind 9/11,.. bush/cheney had other plans... the truth be damned,.. iraq was always their goal... and damn if we won't be payin' for their muiltitude of mistakes for many years to come...

all politicians are not alike... bush/cheney are not the norm... and the fact that there are people who still blindly support them is one crazy ass fact that the truth will evade some people forever....



IRAQI TROOPS, CIVILIANS & OTHERS IN IRAQ

Private Contractors in Iraq, Working in Support of US Army Troops - More than 180,000 in August 2007, per The Nation/LA Times.

Journalists killed - 129, 85 by murder and 44 by acts of war

Journalists killed by US Forces - 14

Iraqi Police and Soldiers Killed - 8,338

Iraqi Civilians Killed, Estimated - A UN issued report dated Sept 20, 2006 stating that Iraqi civilian casualties have been significantly under-reported. Casualties are reported at 50,000 to over 100,000, but may be much higher. Some informed estimates place Iraqi civilian casualities at over 600,000.

Iraqi Insurgents Killed, Roughly Estimated - 55,000

Non-Iraqi Contractors and Civilian Workers Killed - 552

Non-Iraqi Kidnapped - 306, including 57 killed, 147 released, 4 escaped, 6 rescued and 89 status unknown.

Daily Insurgent Attacks, Feb 2004 - 14

Daily Insurgent Attacks, July 2005 - 70

Daily Insurgent Attacks, May 2007 - 163

Estimated Insurgency Strength, Nov 2003 - 15,000

Estimated Insurgency Strength, Oct 2006 - 20,000 - 30,000

Estimated Insurgency Strength, June 2007 - 70,000

QUALITY OF LIFE INDICATORS

Iraqis Displaced Inside Iraq, by Iraq War, as of May 2007 - 2,255,000

Iraqi Refugees in Syria & Jordan - 2.1 million to 2.25 million

Iraqi Unemployment Rate - 27 to 60%, where curfew not in effect

Consumer Price Inflation in 2006 - 50%

Iraqi Children Suffering from Chronic Malnutrition - 28% in June 2007 (Per CNN.com, July 30, 2007)

Percent of professionals who have left Iraq since 2003 - 40%

Iraqi Physicians Before 2003 Invasion - 34,000

Iraqi Physicians Who Have Left Iraq Since 2005 Invasion - 12,000

Iraqi Physicians Murdered Since 2003 Invasion - 2,000

Average Daily Hours Iraqi Homes Have Electricity - 1 to 2 hours, per Ryan Crocker, U.S. Ambassador to Iraq (Per Los Angeles Times, July 27, 2007)

Average Daily Hours Iraqi Homes Have Electricity - 10.9 in May 2007

Average Daily Hours Baghdad Homes Have Electricity - 5.6 in May 2007

Pre-War Daily Hours Baghdad Homes Have Electricity - 16 to 24

Number of Iraqi Homes Connected to Sewer Systems - 37%

Iraqis without access to adequate water supplies - 70% (Per CNN.com, July 30, 2007)

Water Treatment Plants Rehabilitated - 22%

RESULTS OF POLL Taken in Iraq in August 2005 by the British Ministry of Defense (Source: Brookings Institute)

Iraqis "strongly opposed to presence of coalition troops - 82%

Iraqis who believe Coalition forces are responsible for any improvement in security - less than 1%

Iraqis who feel less ecure because of the occupation - 67%

Iraqis who do not have confidence in multi-national forces - 72%



Obama 101: Ending the Iraq War http://usliberals.about.com/od/homelandsecurit1/a/ObamaIrqWr.htm

Barack Obama's Stirring 2002 Speech Against Iraq War .... a must read....
http://usliberals.about.com/od/extraordinaryspeeches/a/Obama2002War.htm


A couple of points:

One- there are plenty in this country that after 9/11 would say kill any Muslim. They don't know the difference between Sunni and Shiite, Arab and Persian. So, the war had a ready made audience.

Two-Iraq DID violate UN mandates, just as Serbia did and there was just cause for a response. However, invasion instead of targeted bombing was a mistake. We could have accomplished international goals just as Sr. did in '91 without the burden of being an occupier. Just as Clinton compared Milosovic and Serbia to Hitler and 1940 Germany, Bush compared a secularist Hussein with a religious fanatic, Bin Laden. They both "sold" their wars. The problem is Bush's ego drove him way past what was in our, Iraq, and the world's best interest.

[Lostcajun]

good post frosty,.. you make more than a few fair points,.. agree with much you say,.. but if i may....



jus' had to take up on this point.... people,.. who seem to lack sumthin' upstairs,.. believed that was a valid reason to wage war because the bushies spent so much time playin' connect the lyin' dots..... after the bushies started this war to placate their own agenda,.. only then did terrorists make their way into the lawless vacuum that bush/cheney themselves created in the new iraq... iraq was no terriost state,.. and they weren't there in numbers before the war started... saddam was a secular despot,.. he was no friend of religious fanatics...

the u.s. havin' started an unjust war,.. preplanned and conducted under the orders of bush/cheney,.. to this date,.. have killed many tens of thousands of innocent civilians... some estimates range to 600,000... many of those people have survivin' family members and friends who may now have a very serious vested interest in joinin' up with radicals that they may have previously had no sympathies with....

they seem to have long memories in the middle east,.. and the collective ill will that the u.s has created by the millions will be a bitch to deal with goin' forward.... that alone is reason enough to elect a man that might prove to the developin' world that we are not guided by deranged cowboys, oil, and military men.... that man is Barack Obama...

many people declare that all politicians are alike.... thankfully,.. that is not wholly true.... some are good people,.. some are not,.. and some are definitely far worse than others.... bush was a disaster in all too many ways...

his 1st months in office he set about undoin' 100's of protective evironmental measures that Clinton and others had put in place... havin' lost the popular vote and havin' promised to unite this country,.. he instead set about like he was a king with a clear mandate to crush those that opposed him... that cocky good ol' boy attitude of his was a sign of much bad to come...

the bush/cheney clan immediately went to work as bush rested on his ranch... he took more vacation days in his 1st 6 months than any other sittin' president ever.... and that was with all kinds of red flags in place in regards to possible terrorist threats.... we all know the guy isn't caable of understandin' anything,.. an he personally doesn't do squat,.. so maybe he had people at work doin' things other than linin' up his buddies to make hay in energy and the military,.. but for certain once we awoke to the the horror of 9/11,.. this fake man of god was given a chance to unleash his dogs,.. and he did... even though saudi nationals were behind 9/11,.. bush/cheney had other plans... the truth be damned,.. iraq was always their goal... and damn if we won't be payin' for their muiltitude of mistakes for many years to come...

all politicians are not alike... bush/cheney are not the norm... and the fact that there are people who still blindly support them is one crazy ass fact that the truth will evade some people forever....



IRAQI TROOPS, CIVILIANS & OTHERS IN IRAQ

Private Contractors in Iraq, Working in Support of US Army Troops - More than 180,000 in August 2007, per The Nation/LA Times.

Journalists killed - 129, 85 by murder and 44 by acts of war

Journalists killed by US Forces - 14

Iraqi Police and Soldiers Killed - 8,338

Iraqi Civilians Killed, Estimated - A UN issued report dated Sept 20, 2006 stating that Iraqi civilian casualties have been significantly under-reported. Casualties are reported at 50,000 to over 100,000, but may be much higher. Some informed estimates place Iraqi civilian casualities at over 600,000.

Iraqi Insurgents Killed, Roughly Estimated - 55,000

Non-Iraqi Contractors and Civilian Workers Killed - 552

Non-Iraqi Kidnapped - 306, including 57 killed, 147 released, 4 escaped, 6 rescued and 89 status unknown.

Daily Insurgent Attacks, Feb 2004 - 14

Daily Insurgent Attacks, July 2005 - 70

Daily Insurgent Attacks, May 2007 - 163

Estimated Insurgency Strength, Nov 2003 - 15,000

Estimated Insurgency Strength, Oct 2006 - 20,000 - 30,000

Estimated Insurgency Strength, June 2007 - 70,000

QUALITY OF LIFE INDICATORS

Iraqis Displaced Inside Iraq, by Iraq War, as of May 2007 - 2,255,000

Iraqi Refugees in Syria & Jordan - 2.1 million to 2.25 million

Iraqi Unemployment Rate - 27 to 60%, where curfew not in effect

Consumer Price Inflation in 2006 - 50%

Iraqi Children Suffering from Chronic Malnutrition - 28% in June 2007 (Per CNN.com, July 30, 2007)

Percent of professionals who have left Iraq since 2003 - 40%

Iraqi Physicians Before 2003 Invasion - 34,000

Iraqi Physicians Who Have Left Iraq Since 2005 Invasion - 12,000

Iraqi Physicians Murdered Since 2003 Invasion - 2,000

Average Daily Hours Iraqi Homes Have Electricity - 1 to 2 hours, per Ryan Crocker, U.S. Ambassador to Iraq (Per Los Angeles Times, July 27, 2007)

Average Daily Hours Iraqi Homes Have Electricity - 10.9 in May 2007

Average Daily Hours Baghdad Homes Have Electricity - 5.6 in May 2007

Pre-War Daily Hours Baghdad Homes Have Electricity - 16 to 24

Number of Iraqi Homes Connected to Sewer Systems - 37%

Iraqis without access to adequate water supplies - 70% (Per CNN.com, July 30, 2007)

Water Treatment Plants Rehabilitated - 22%

RESULTS OF POLL Taken in Iraq in August 2005 by the British Ministry of Defense (Source: Brookings Institute)

Iraqis "strongly opposed to presence of coalition troops - 82%

Iraqis who believe Coalition forces are responsible for any improvement in security - less than 1%

Iraqis who feel less ecure because of the occupation - 67%

Iraqis who do not have confidence in multi-national forces - 72%



Obama 101: Ending the Iraq War http://usliberals.about.com/od/homelandsecurit1/a/ObamaIrqWr.htm

Barack Obama's Stirring 2002 Speech Against Iraq War .... a must read....
http://usliberals.about.com/od/extraordinaryspeeches/a/Obama2002War.htm

What are the sources for this material? It would be interesting to see more infrastructure data and 2008 data if available and accurate. Also, though it would impossible to do so, it would be good to see some comparative information that gives an accurate glimpse of Iraq under their dictator. Facts are best when they are accurate and in context.

With respect, the "facts" during any war would look miserable. The most costly war in American history was the Civil War (with over 500,000 dead combatants) and I'm sure all the facts were terrible, yet, a fight for the liberty of all US citizens was worth it in my opinion. But I'm sure that many people who paid the highest cost during that time in history may have wondered if it was worth it. It even took another 100 years for the freedoms to begin to be realized more fully.

[sophisticated sissy]

Gosh, do we all have such bad A.D.D. that we can't remember what we're discussing without quoting someone else's entire entry before posting a response? :p


Good one, Bry! I think that should be a bumpersticker. If it isn't already, that is.

[dank_bass]

Thanks for calling me stupid Paul. Im not defending any of the "bushies" actions in office, but no one has ever adequately explained to me the pre meditated oil driven invasion of Iraq. Were we to capture their oil? if so, how come we havent. If this were the case then we could have cheap gas stateside? right? The Iraq War was never presented to me as having anything to do with 9/11, that would be the war in Afghanistan. The Iraq War was for violating UN Resolutions. What is the big conspiracy theory? What am I missing? Please fill me in ... Im actually an intelligent person, I'll grasp any valid concept, I promise

[Lostcajun]

Sorry for unnecessary large quote reference... my bad etiquette.

[Lostcajun]

The Iraq War was never presented to me as having anything to do with 9/11, that would be the war in Afghanistan. The Iraq War was for violating UN Resolutions. What is the big conspiracy theory? What am I missing? Please fill me in ... Im actually an intelligent person, I'll grasp any valid concept, I promise

Also potential WMDs.

[swag]

The Iraq War was never presented to me as having anything to do with 9/11, that would be the war in Afghanistan.

=>

But what I want to bring to your attention today is the potentially much more sinister nexus between Iraq and the Al Qaida terrorist network, a nexus that combines classic terrorist organizations and modern methods of murder. Iraq today harbors a deadly terrorist network headed by Abu Musab Al-Zarqawi, an associated in collaborator of Osama bin Laden and his Al Qaida lieutenants.
...
Going back to the early and mid-1990s, when bin Laden was based in Sudan, an Al Qaida source tells us that Saddam and bin Laden reached an understanding that Al Qaida would no longer support activities against Baghdad. Early Al Qaida ties were forged by secret, high-level intelligence service contacts with Al Qaida, secret Iraqi intelligence high-level contacts with Al Qaida.

We know members of both organizations met repeatedly and have met at least eight times at very senior levels since the early 1990s. In 1996, a foreign security service tells us, that bin Laden met with a senior Iraqi intelligence official in Khartoum, and later met the director of the Iraqi intelligence service.

Saddam became more interested as he saw Al Qaida's appalling attacks. A detained Al Qaida member tells us that Saddam was more willing to assist Al Qaida after the 1998 bombings of our embassies in Kenya and Tanzania. Saddam was also impressed by Al Qaida's attacks on the USS Cole in Yemen in October 2000.

Iraqis continued to visit bin Laden in his new home in Afghanistan. A senior defector, one of Saddam's former intelligence chiefs in Europe, says Saddam sent his agents to Afghanistan sometime in the mid-1990s to provide training to Al Qaida members on document forgery.
...

[revjimk]

People getting what they want? absolute hogwash, unless you're referring to the neocon conspirators of "Project for a New American Century"
Nobody felt threatened by Iraq till they started their propaganda machine up. Yes indeed, lots of Amricans don't know the difference between secular & fundamentalist, Shiite & Sunni, & Bush made the most of it. Instead of warmonger propaganda they could have explained these differences.
Google "Project for A New American Century",there's an article about America's changing defence needs, published BEFORE 9/11. Wolfowitz , John Bolton, etc. were on this project. Page 94, not verbatim but I have it damn near memorized:"The need for a permanent US base in the Mideast transcends the immediate justification of the Saddam Hussein regime".
The whole idea of this group is that we are now the pre-eminent miltary power in the world, what should we do with it? The goal of the Iraq invasion has always been a permant base, to control the Mideast & its oil. Just because its failing doesn't change the original goal. Have you hear about the Embassy we're building there? Its something like 10 times bigger than our Embassy in China. WHY?
Not a mistake or miscalculation, this war is a CRIME, a deliberate war of conquest.
Paul C
I pretty much agree with you, BUT:"watchin' republican ceo's send jobs overseas seems to spread the wealth,.. but it actually only enriches a select few..."
Didn't Bill Clinton start NAFTA? He also passed the "Iraqi Liberation Act", which committed the US to overthrowing their government. A declaration of war.
Screw "Moderate Democrats". The truth is radical.
rev

[Lostcajun]

So I'm curious. There's a list of corporate CEOs and their political affiliations? I'm not sure that assuming that CEOs could be lumped into one party or the other. If money is the "bottom line" I would think party affiliation would have little to do with it.

[festivalgirl]

We are a vocal, active group. We are sadly small and rare.

The average American doesn't participate, isn't vocal and relies on the Government to just take care of us. Complacency has gotten us where we are.

Well, they have taken care of us as THEY saw/see fit not necessarily as WE see fit. "We" have no one to blame but our collective selves.

[PaulC]

Please fill me in ... Im actually an intelligent person, I'll grasp any valid concept, I promise

wish i could stay and play more..... luv ya' dank,.. just vote for Obama will ya'...

have to head on ova' to the east coast (3 hr. ride,.. leavin' the second i hit submit) where tomorrow afternoon i am reported to have a 1 in 12 chance of winnin' a pretty cool brand spankin' new 20 ft. center counsel pathfinder boat,.. powered by a four stroke 150 yamaha....

thought i had won the boat when they pulled my name at a fishin' tackle sale event held by maverick boats and shimano tackle in sarasota back in mid jan....

then they kindly informed me that i "actually" won a chance to come together with 11 other "winners" from 11 other raffles to have another chance at "winnin' "....talk about an instant buzz kill..... from owner of a boat to owner to owner of a .083% of actually winnin' it....

wish me luck obama peeps,... you too other people......:) :)


69 is a lucky number isn't it???........

[jonnygospeltent]

Good Luck Paul. You have to come up with a Threadhead related name for it.

[dank_bass]

=>

This was after it started, not the original reason for goin there.

[dank_bass]

People getting what they want? absolute hogwash, unless you're referring to the neocon conspirators of "Project for a New American Century"
Nobody felt threatened by Iraq till they started their propaganda machine up. Yes indeed, lots of Amricans don't know the difference between secular & fundamentalist, Shiite & Sunni, & Bush made the most of it. Instead of warmonger propaganda they could have explained these differences.
Google "Project for A New American Century",there's an article about America's changing defence needs, published BEFORE 9/11. Wolfowitz , John Bolton, etc. were on this project. Page 94, not verbatim but I have it damn near memorized:"The need for a permanent US base in the Mideast transcends the immediate justification of the Saddam Hussein regime".
The whole idea of this group is that we are now the pre-eminent miltary power in the world, what should we do with it? The goal of the Iraq invasion has always been a permant base, to control the Mideast & its oil. Just because its failing doesn't change the original goal. Have you hear about the Embassy we're building there? Its something like 10 times bigger than our Embassy in China. WHY?
Not a mistake or miscalculation, this war is a CRIME, a deliberate war of conquest.
Paul C
I pretty much agree with you, BUT:"watchin' republican ceo's send jobs overseas seems to spread the wealth,.. but it actually only enriches a select few..."
Didn't Bill Clinton start NAFTA? He also passed the "Iraqi Liberation Act", which committed the US to overthrowing their government. A declaration of war.
Screw "Moderate Democrats". The truth is radical.
rev

I dont think you understood what I meant by "everyone getting what they want". I meant, two people with two different opinions, and two opposite sets of needs can never be accomodated unless people work together and compromise.

[saturn]

Didn't Bill Clinton start NAFTA?

NOPE

NAFTA was initially pursued by politicians in the United States and Canada supportive of free trade, led by Canadian Prime Minister Brian Mulroney, U.S. President George H. W. Bush, and the Mexican President Carlos Salinas de Gortari. The three countries signed NAFTA in December 1992, subject to ratification by the legislatures of the three countries.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_American_Free_Trade_Agreement

[dank_bass]

wish i could stay and play more..... luv ya' dank,.. just vote for Obama will ya'...

have to head on ova' to the east coast (3 hr. ride,.. leavin' the second i hit submit) where tomorrow afternoon i am reported to have a 1 in 12 chance of winnin' a pretty cool brand spankin' new 20 ft. center counsel pathfinder boat,.. powered by a four stroke 150 yamaha....

thought i had won the boat when they pulled my name at a fishin' tackle sale event held by maverick boats and shimano tackle in sarasota back in mid jan....

then they kindly informed me that i "actually" won a chance to come together with 11 other "winners" from 11 other raffles to have another chance at "winnin' "....talk about an instant buzz kill..... from owner of a boat to owner to owner of a .083% of actually winnin' it....

wish me luck obama peeps,... you too other people......:) :)


69 is a lucky number isn't it???........

That boat doesnt sound very green ... can the engine be converted to run on liberals?

[swag]

This was after it started, not the original reason for goin there.

No, you are wrong.

This was from Powell's presentation to the UN, Feb 5, 2003.
http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2003/02/20030205-1.html

The war began 6 weeks later, March 20, 2003.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2003_Iraq_war_timeline

Six months later, a Wash. Post poll showed 69% of Americans still believed that Saddam Hussein was personally involved in the 9/11 attacks.
http://www.usatoday.com/news/washington/2003-09-06-poll-iraq_x.htm

[swag]

then they kindly informed me that i "actually" won a chance to come together with 11 other "winners" from 11 other raffles to have another chance at "winnin' "....talk about an instant buzz kill..... from owner of a boat to owner to owner of a .083% of actually winnin' it....



Watch your decimals. Your chances are actually 8.3%

Good luck!

[ohio]

That boat doesnt sound very green ... can the engine be converted to run on liberals?
four strokes are pretty green, compared to 2 strokes...

[Lostcajun]

We are a vocal, active group. We are sadly small and rare.

The average American doesn't participate, isn't vocal and relies on the Government to just take care of us. Complacency has gotten us where we are.

Well, they have taken care of us as THEY saw/see fit not necessarily as WE see fit. "We" have no one to blame but our collective selves.

Well said.

[breambob]

I may steal my mother's this weekend. These are great, and I feel like me some white beans and ham.

Anyway this looks yummy:

http://www.popsci.com/kitchen-alchemy/article/2008-06/cooking-under-pressure

Hot, steamy, and pressified, love it.

[mymecca]

definitely and right before...he's the only one that convinced any fencesitters that got convinced...and cheney, dubya, condi, powell, rummy just kept repeating WMD, WMD, WMD...garrison keeler put an amazing number of their sound snippets together for the weapons of mass destruction waltz...it was disgusting and priceless...i went to all the peace marches out here that 2003 winter to spring...even if it was just my lunch break during tax season...knew it wouldn't do any good, but i needed to add my body to the crowd

[mymecca]

something other than OIL...is naive, but welcome to their opinion...i personally believe richard clarke's version...career intelligience guy that left...i forget the book's name...as soon as 9/11 happened they wanted iraq, pulling out the oil exploration maps immediately...since when did saddam invite outside oil exploration?...afghanistan has nothing in it, but had to go first, 'cause you know, 9/11...spend a year and on to the real prize...2 ongoing wars, from 2002 and 2003

[Lostcajun]

People's opinions aren't facts, but the Gallup Poll just released congresses approval ratings:

"Gallup's annual update on confidence in institutions finds just 12% of Americans expressing confidence in Congress, the lowest of the 16 institutions tested this year, and the worst rating Gallup has measured for any institution in the 35-year history of this question," the polling firm just reported.

[Doubledown]

Thanks for calling me stupid Paul. Im not defending any of the "bushies" actions in office, but no one has ever adequately explained to me the pre meditated oil driven invasion of Iraq. Were we to capture their oil? if so, how come we havent. If this were the case then we could have cheap gas stateside? right? The Iraq War was never presented to me as having anything to do with 9/11, that would be the war in Afghanistan. The Iraq War was for violating UN Resolutions. What is the big conspiracy theory? What am I missing? Please fill me in ... Im actually an intelligent person, I'll grasp any valid concept, I promise
Check this out http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/bushswar/

[Doubledown]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vAH3AeFy0SY "nope no weapons over there ":mad:

[mightyradgumbo]

I keep promising myself that I will not get political on a bored dedicated mostly to Music and New Orleans and partially to licking the male and female anatomy of certain musicianss but I have to take serious umbridge with anyone that cannot see that this is all about 1 fucking thing....OIL....the majority of players in the administration of this White House have either ties or ties to the players who have ties to the oil industry. Spare me the "terrorists win" bullshit that was spewed in the early days of 9/11 (and actually had some credence at the time). Just watch your local news and see if they report that someone "came home" in a pine fucking box to your home town. We celebrate their loyalty to the cause for sure.
As a former Marine who picked up the body parts of my fallen comrades in arms during the attack on the barracks in Beirut, I can tell you how mad it makes me by cheapening these kids lives by saying he or she died for what was right. It isn't what was right, it is what they were ordered to do. If the politicos running the government (and yes I am including the spineless assholes who are not setting the game straight by voting everything this dictatorial asshole that resides in the White House down) fix it, then we need to fix it for them. We need to impeach certain people, we need to recall others, we need to put the rest on notice that we are not going to stand by idly while they kill our sons and daughters over....OIL
The best approval rating the president received in the latest polls from my minimal research is 32%. How can you run a country when 68 percent (at best) of the people say that I disapprove of what you are doing.
Here in Massachusetts this week we buried three that "came home" and they were 19,21 and 33, an average of 24 years old...someone should pay unless they cannot figure out WTF we are doing over there.
/Gumbo stepping off his soapbox/

[festivalgirl]

Never get off that particular soap box. We desperately need those of you who served to be as vocal as hell!!! Look at Jim Webb.

Any bored revolving around New Orleans HAS to get political. We're pumping billions into Iraq and pennies into NOLA and the rest of America.

[Cleophus]

I sure as heck ain't gonna vote Republican, but the Dems aren't so hot either.

They finally get control of BOTH houses of Congress, and the first thing Pelosi says is "impeachment is off the table". Furthermore, the overwhelming voters' message behind the Dems' being elected to control Congress last time was to put an end to the Iraq war, but they have failed miserably there, too.

If the Dems lose the upcoming presidential election, I hope that is the end of the Democratic Party. I still can't believe they nominated a boob like Kerry in 2004 and lost an election to the least-popular president ever.

[sophisticated sissy]

Kerry ... GWB's cousin. My dear mother referred to him as "that horse-faced, wind-surfing, S.O.B." She hated his wife even more. And mom is what you'd describe as a "good Christian lady." :D

Personally, I think the reason she disliked Theresa H. so much is that Theresa reminded her of my dad's 2nd wife.

One thing I found amusing in the previous election happened after a major Bush-Cheney rally in Cincinnati. I was in a restaurant and all of a sudden the whole parking lot was full of cars with Bush-Cheney bumperstickers . A horde of Republicans wearing B-C buttons and red, white & blue spilled out of the cars and packed the whole dining room.

When they got their "freedom fries", every single one of them liberally doused them with HEINZ catsup. I saw a lot of irony in that one!


What I personally found most disheartening about the most recent race between Hillary Clinton and Barack Obama was the lack of focus on issues in the debates. What are the issues? Is getting U.S. troops out of Iraq a priority for most of the American voting population?

Intellectually, I do not support the U.S. involvement in Iraq, even though I am forced to subsidize it with my tax dollars. Sen. McCain has stated that the U.S. could be involved for 100 years there. Is bringing back the draft, involuntary military conscription, the only way to end the U.S. involvement there?

[revjimk]

MyT-Rad
Well said.
A few weeks ago, former Fed chairman Alan Greenspan, certainly no radical by a longshot, said something to the effect of, "I'm surprised more politicians haven't admitted the Iraq war is primarily about oil" (quoted from memory only...)
rev

[Lostcajun]

Mightyrad,

Thank you for serving our country. Anyone who serves deserves our honor in words and in actions. Next beers on me, my friend.

Kurt!

[Cleophus]

What I personally found most disheartening about the most recent race between Hillary Clinton and Barack Obama was the lack of focus on issues in the debates. What are the issues?

I totally agree, Sophisticated Sissy. Obama probably has my vote, as the lesser of two evils, but he has NO experience governing, Hillary's healthcare plan was much more well thought-out, and he "change" rhetoric is, I fear, very EMPTY.

[sophisticated sissy]

:) Like His Holiness The Dalai Lama said, "Hope for the best, expect the worst."

I hope we can all keep our minds open during the run up to the November election. And remain friends, too! :)

[Lostcajun]

I hope we can all keep our minds open during the run up to the November election. And remain friends, too! :)

Well said. I vote for friendship.

[festivalgirl]

:) Like His Holiness The Dalai Lama said, "Hope for the best, expect the worst."

I hope we can all keep our minds open during the run up to the November election. And remain friends, too! :)

True friendships can transcend almost anything. Ultimately, we all want want is best for America & Americans.

I hope for all political parties to be dis-banded and have people run for office on their own individual merits.

I can dream ....... ;)

[Frosty]

People getting what they want? absolute hogwash, unless you're referring to the neocon conspirators of "Project for a New American Century"
Nobody felt threatened by Iraq till they started their propaganda machine up. Yes indeed, lots of Amricans don't know the difference between secular & fundamentalist, Shiite & Sunni, & Bush made the most of it. Instead of warmonger propaganda they could have explained these differences.

rev

The "they" that would explain these differences 6 years ago could not get elected. Now, we shall see if the man who wants to meet with Iran will win vs/ the man who wants to bomb Iran (to the tune of Barbara Ann). It's all up to......the PEOPLE!

[revjimk]

Cleophus
I'm definitely voting for Obama, will probably even volunteer for him, but sadly, I agree with a lot of what you're saying.
I was for Kucinich, told the absolute unvarnished truth. I've been suspicious about Obama from Day One, specifically: Who is behind him? Why in the world would a guy with less than one full Senate term under his belt be a Presidential candidate? Who told him to run?
I fear that he has been picked by some political pros for his
"Johnny Mathis appeal"; for those of you who don't remember- non threatening black man. There are plenty of black politicians who have fought the good fight for decades & proven their mettle, Charley Rangell, for one. Why Obama? Is he just a blank slate for people to project their hopes onto?
Hillary voted for the war & "Patriot Act", wouldn't even apologize. All she had to say was "They lied, & I trusted them". Couldn't vote for her in the primary, no way
By the way, whats up with that picture? Pretty negative stereotype, no???
rev

[revjimk]

Frosty
Sadly, Kerry never had the balls to explain the facts on Iraq (by the way, I volunteered for him). He treated it like a "Miscalculation", not a deliberate war of conquest. Never brought up Project for New American Century, never attacked Bush's "chicken hawk" status on Nam.Would have been the perfect reply to "swift boating" BS!
Sometimes it seemed like he was "Playing to not lose" rather than "Playing to win".
My paranoid side suspects the election was decided by a handshake at a Skull & Bones meeting. Why in the world couldn't we have ONE non S&B member to vote for?????
In fact, every President since Old Bush (20 years ago) has been a Yalie. at least we're over that this time, unless...
How many people think Bush will bomb Iran before the elections, setting up another "security crisis"? Flip a coin, as far as I can see....
rev

[dank_bass]

Check this out http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/bushswar/

I just read the entire description about the program, and the word Oil did not appear once, this is the link I am looking for.

[Frosty]

Frosty
Sadly, Kerry never had the balls to explain the facts on Iraq (by the way, I volunteered for him). He treated it like a "Miscalculation", not a deliberate war
rev


And, he didn't have the balls because he knew it would kill his candidacy. If you think out of line on either side, your candidacy is dead. But, you know what is far greater than who we vote for in determining policy, it is how we spend.

[revjimk]

Frosty
"And, he didn't have the balls because he knew it would kill his candidacy."
That kind of thinking is why we always have to vote for the lesser of 2 evils. Doesn't anyone have enough faith in Americans to believe they would be impressed by someone who told the truth?
People can sense half-ass BS
Remember, until Pearl Harbor, most Americans, including conservatives, Republicans, Midwesterners, etc. were isolationist.
The Iraq war isn't about "left vs. right", but "right vs. wrong". Democrats have to realize this, simple, common sense morality. This is why Republican fatcats can get away with calling liberals "elitist" (seems absurd, right?)
Lots of ruling class liberal yuppies on the coasts think of everybody else as ignorant hicks. Wrong... just cause a state votes 55%-45% for Republicans, still 45% had some sense.I honestly think a "truth teller" would be noticed & appreciated.
democracy begins with faith in the people...
rev

[Frosty]

Frosty
democracy begins with faith in the people...
rev


Whoa! Absolutely NOT! Our system was set up with checks and balances because of a substantial lack of faith in the people. Faith in the people is what leads to Nazi Germany where the masses reign unchecked. The Supreme Court is there to provide a check to the will of the people. The President has a check from more localized representatives of the people. Our system was set up to eliminate the tyranny of the majority. However, we still do respond to the masses more than the rest. It's just those responses are ideally held in check. But, in the case of the war in Iraq, the Supreme Court has no say, and the check which is Congress, still had to answer to the masses.

[Zydekitten]

'Nuff said . . .

Top Ten Possible Titles For George W. Bush's Memoir

10. "Tuesdays With Moron"

9. "Surviving The 12-Hour Work Week"

8. "What Being President Learned Me"

7. "The 7 Habits Of Highly Incompetent People"

6. "All I Ever Really Needed To Know I Learned In Kindergarten"

5. "Sloppy Joes Is Tasty"

4. "It Takes A Village Idiot"

3. "How To Lose Wars And Alienate World Leaders"

2. "At Least I Never Had A Gay Date In An Airport Bathroom"

1. "Huh?"

[swag]

No matter what you think of the candidates policy stances, it's comforting to know that whoever wins will be so much better spoken than what we've had the last eight years.

http://images.ucomics.com/comics/db/2008/db080622.gif

[sophisticated sissy]

I've been suspicious about Obama from Day One, specifically: Who is behind him? Why in the world would a guy with less than one full Senate term under his belt be a Presidential candidate? Who told him to run?
I fear that he has been picked by some political pros ...


By the way, whats up with that picture? Pretty negative stereotype, no???
rev



Ah! Paranoia!:) I sometimes wonder about Sen Obama as well. He is scary to me because his ambition seems to be overshadowed only by the ambition of one other politician, former U.S. President Richard M. Nixon.

Can't answer your questions, though, but sex is how Sen. Obama became who he is today:


(quoted from wikipedia)


Five years later, when Jack Ryan's Senate campaign began, the Chicago Tribune newspaper and WLS-TV, the local ABC affiliate, sought to have the records released. Both Jeri and Jack agreed to make their divorce records public, but not the custody records, claiming that their release could be harmful to their son.

On June 22, 2004, Los Angeles Superior Court Judge Robert Schnider agreed to release the custody files; the decision generated much controversy because it went against both parents' direct request and because it generally reversed the early decision to seal the papers in the best interest of the child. It was revealed that, six years previously, Jeri had accused Jack Ryan of asking her to perform sexual acts with him in public, and in adult clubs in New York, New Orleans, and Paris. Jeri Ryan described one as "a bizarre club with cages, whips and other apparatus hanging from the ceiling."[3] Jack Ryan denied these allegations. Although Jeri Ryan refused to comment on the matter during the campaign, the document disclosure led Jack Ryan to withdraw his Republican candidacy for an open United States Senate seat in Illinois (which was eventually won by Barack Obama).

************************************************** **************

As for Cleophus' pic, isn't it part of the art work from a 70s Rolling Stone album?

[sophisticated sissy]

... it is how we spend.

Speaking of spending, and I know I've quoted you out of context, just for fun, let's do this exercise on how long it would take one person to spend $3 trillion.

If this person were given $3 trillion and was told that he had to spend $100 million each and every day,seven days a week, 365 days a year, and was told not to come back until he had spent every last penny, this person would not come back for approximately 82 years.

That's a lot of money to spend in one day, so let's limit it to having the person spending only a paltry $ 1 million per day under the same terms. It would only take about 8,219 years to finish spending the $3 trillion. Or, just about the same length of time it will take our descendants to pay off this stroke of genius by our "Masters Of War" in D.C.

[Frosty]

Ah! Paranoia!:) I sometimes wonder about Sen Obama as well. He is scary to me because his ambition seems to be overshadowed only by the ambition of one other politician, former U.S. President Richard M. Nixon.

Can't answer your questions, though, but sex is how Sen. Obama became who he is today:


(quoted from wikipedia)


Five years later, when Jack Ryan's Senate campaign began, the Chicago Tribune newspaper and WLS-TV, the local ABC affiliate, sought to have the records released. Both Jeri and Jack agreed to make their divorce records public, but not the custody records, claiming that their release could be harmful to their son.

On June 22, 2004, Los Angeles Superior Court Judge Robert Schnider agreed to release the custody files; the decision generated much controversy because it went against both parents' direct request and because it generally reversed the early decision to seal the papers in the best interest of the child. It was revealed that, six years previously, Jeri had accused Jack Ryan of asking her to perform sexual acts with him in public, and in adult clubs in New York, New Orleans, and Paris. Jeri Ryan described one as "a bizarre club with cages, whips and other apparatus hanging from the ceiling."[3] Jack Ryan denied these allegations. Although Jeri Ryan refused to comment on the matter during the campaign, the document disclosure led Jack Ryan to withdraw his Republican candidacy for an open United States Senate seat in Illinois (which was eventually won by Barack Obama).

************************************************** **************

As for Cleophus' pic, isn't it part of the art work from a 70s Rolling Stone album?

A few addendums. One is this Senate seat was vacated by Peter Fitzgerald, a wealthy independent Republican who had nominated US Prosecuter Patrick Fitzgerald (no relation) to the US Attorney role in Chicago. Patrick Fitzgerald was known for bring down the Gambino crime family in NY and prosecuting the mastermind behind the original WTC bombing in 1993. Fitzgerald used his wealth to run his campaign and rejected the usual sources of funds in Illinois politics and thus came under fire from both Democrats and Republicans alike. In addition, his heatedly opposed nominee for US Attorney has jailed one former governor, is hot on the heals of another, and recently got convictions for the top of the Chicago Outfit. Peter Fitzgerald declined to run for re-election because of the wealth of opposition that had grown against him as he was not part of the Illinois political combine and his nomination of Patrick Fitzgerald destroyed what had been a US Attorney's office in the pockets of the Combine.

Jack Ryan was a successful investment banker in Chicago who had quit his job to teach inner city kids. He later decided to run for public office. I know several people who have known him personally for years and they all speak very highly of him. His wife, Jeri aka Seven of Nine, Ryan is an actress and played a major role in Star Trek Voyageur. The ironic thing about the "sex" scandal mentioned is that it involved ONLY sex acts or requested sex acts between Jack and his wife AND contained no allegations of violence. So, history was made for this being the first sex scandal to bring down a politican for what he did with his wife.

A final note, the Illinois GOP recrutied Alan Keyes to replace Ryan in the race against Obama in what became a total farce. Only the downstate vote provided Keyes enough votes to reach the 25% mark. Ryan would have fared much better but would not have won the election, even if the "scandal" had not occured.

[marignygreg]

I am getting a headache reading all this. Gumbo is right on about the Oil War. The biggest statement we can make is with our cars. If you are a 2 car family, become a 1 car family. Only drive when you have to. Consolidate your trips. Walk, bike or use public transportation. Reverse sprawl by living 'in town' or move back to the city. If you can afford one, get a hybrid. Make your own Gas ( I know someone who makes his own gas in his garage ). GAS/OIL is going to be our downfall if were not careful.

[Lostcajun]

Oil has always and will always (in the near future) be the biggest reason for the US or any other world power to have involvement in the middle east. The involvement is to protect the oil supply not just to the US, but to the world. The world economy requires the free flow of oil. Right or wrong, oil currently is the primary energy source for the planet. It's not merely about one country owning or controlling the oil. If that were the US agenda then we would have seen Iraq's oil diverted, much like it was with the UN scandal a few years back. Instead the free flow of oil keeps the world economy moving. One day, of course, this will all change. A new technology will make oil become like the horse and buggy whip, but that is not yet occurred. I'm not pro-oil, but I'm not anti-oil. It's just the way it is. But I do look and will work for the day (I commute with my bike often) for the day when our energy will come from another source.

Part of the problem for me is that we tend to demonize institutions that we all tend to fully participate in and utilize. I just don't go with the negative vibe toward people or things we disagree with. People say big business and oil execs are all evil (Bush or Clinton or the demon of the day). Yet, in most cases we purchase their energy to run our cars and our electricity, and we count on their profitability to stabilize our retirement plans. Louisiana is financed by the oil industry much more than any other.

I think that it is far more effective and honest to avoid demonization, and promote transformation of our culture and the way we do things. We should drive smaller cars, not because somebody tells us to, but because conservation is always a good thing for our global (and local) community. We should ride bikes because it is good for the health of us personally and for the environment. We should cut back on all kinds of things, not merely because some say we have global warming, but because we need to have balance, and balance is good for everyone in every country.

[festivalgirl]

I try not to drive or take public transportation. In other words, I'm a freak in Los Angeles. It's the only good thing about still being unemployed - only one of us has a daily commute.

While I'm trying to do my best, the City doesn't help much. The Subway system shuts down too early. Independent cities like Beverly Hills, West Hollywood & Santa Monica didn't want the train going through their neighborhoods, so it doesn't. For those of you who don't know LA, they are cities in the middle of a city so public transpo isn't fluid.

I don't know if other cities are slow to public transportation awareness, but here the oil & car companies still have too much pull and too many politicians in their pockets. Citizens need to demand better, more efficient public transportation & then use it.

I know you all must be tired of hearing me talk up Amtrak but with oil prices and airlines in crisis, it could really hep this country.

[Lostcajun]

I really do love public transport. I wish our city took it seriously. Perhaps out of the crisis season we are in, it will motivate innovation from individuals and from companies.

[Cleophus]

By the way, whats up with that picture? Pretty negative stereotype, no???
rev

Rev -- I was behind Kucinich as well. (I don't totally blame the mainstream media for his dropping out, but he did have some strong arguments pointing to him being unfairly treated by mainstream media, particularly in the later Dem. debates.)

My avatar is (was) a pic from the Stones' "Exile on Main Street". But I can see where it might be offensive or perpetuate a certain stereotype, so I think it would be in better taste to change it.

[Frosty]

I am getting a headache reading all this. Gumbo is right on about the Oil War. The biggest statement we can make is with our cars. If you are a 2 car family, become a 1 car family. Only drive when you have to. Consolidate your trips. Walk, bike or use public transportation. Reverse sprawl by living 'in town' or move back to the city. If you can afford one, get a hybrid. Make your own Gas ( I know someone who makes his own gas in his garage ). GAS/OIL is going to be our downfall if were not careful.


I biked to work today. Do I get a cookie?

[marignygreg]

I biked to work today. Do I get a cookie?

No, but with the $$ you saved and the calories you lost you deserve a pizza!!

[Frosty]

No, but with the $$ you saved and the calories you lost you deserve a pizza!!

Deep dish, of course!

[revjimk]

Cleophus
I do indeed remember that album. I think you made a wise choice to change it, tho.
Everybody
Agreed, many of us need to change our lifestyles. That alone won't stop the war, tho.
If we handle this right, it can result in positive change. While driving cross country earlier this summer to visit my Mom back East, I was pleased to see a big wind farm in Kansas that wasn't there last year, with new turbines on the way in semis.
I drive a 3 cylinder Subaru Justy that gets 35-40 mpg. Not only don't they make them any more, its really hard to get parts. I'd love to get something like a Prius, but its way out of my budget. Flying would have been half the cost, but I need a car when I'm here (doesn't feel right asking 85 year old Mom to borrow the car for the weekend, leaving her stranded while I'm out dancin'..)
American car companies need to get all those folks they just laid off back to work on an affordable, gas efficient car. Doesn't need to be so hi-tech, the key is SMALL & LIGHT.
rev

[PaulC]

Oil has always and will always (in the near future) be the biggest reason for the US or any other world power to have involvement in the middle east. The involvement is to protect the oil supply not just to the US, but to the world. The world economy requires the free flow of oil. Right or wrong, oil currently is the primary energy source for the planet. It's not merely about one country owning or controlling the oil.

It is reported that even in normal times that 1/3 of our military expenditures are put to "use" keeping the oil lanes runnin' "free"...... and as you can see jus' below,.. that would represent one huge ass amount of money....


Current Military
$965 billion:
• Military Personnel $129 billion
• Operation & Maint. $241 billion
• Procurement $143 billion
• Research & Dev. $79 billion
• Construction $15 billion
• Family Housing $3 billion
• DoD misc. $4 billion
• Retired Pay $70 billion
• DoE nuclear weapons $17 billion
• NASA (50%) $9 billion
• International Security $9 billion
• Homeland Secur. (military) $35 billion
• State Dept. (partial) $6 billion
• other military (non-DoD) $5 billion
• “Global War on Terror” $200 billion [We added $162 billion to the last item to supplement the Budget’s grossly underestimated $38 billion in “allowances” to be spent in 2009 for the “War on Terror,” which includes the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan]

Past Military,
$484 billion:
• Veterans’ Benefits $94 billion
• Interest on national debt (80%) created by military spending, $390 billion

-------------------------------------------------------------------------

if you have made it this far,... you might be interested in givin' this website a go.... it has one very interestin' time line tool to track events that lead us to this point in time...

------------------------------------------------------------------------
http://www.motherjones.com/bush_war_timeline/

Lie by Lie: The Mother Jones Iraq War Timeline (8/1/90 - 2/14/08)

In this timeline, we've assembled the history of the Iraq War to create a resource we hope will help resolve open questions of the Bush era. What did our leaders know and when did they know it? And, perhaps just as important, what red flags did we miss, and how could we have missed them?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------

click on the "how to use this timeline" link

[Frosty]

It is reported that even in normal times that 1/3 of our military expenditures are put to "use" keeping the oil lanes runnin' "free"...... and as you can see jus' below,.. that would represent one huge ass amount of money....




http://www.evworld.com/news.cfm?newsid=11520