The road home just got a little bumpier

[mightyradgumbo]

sorry for the long link, the IT nazis have blocked tinyurl.com here

http://www.boston.com/news/nation/articles/2008/03/29/katrina_victims_may_have_to_repay_s/

[t-bird]

I can't even read to the end of the article because it makes me so f'n MAD!

[breambob]

sorry for the long link, the IT nazis have blocked tinyurl.com here

http://www.boston.com/news/nation/articles/2008/03/29/katrina_victims_may_have_to_repay_s/

Sadly,tinyurl has become a vector for many bad viruses. Your hyper link works fine, and thanks.

So. What did you think would happen when you gave Blanco and Nagin 11 billion dollars? Hate to be cynical, but did you expect it to actually end up in re-development? Fire stations? Police stations? Hospitals and clinics? Housing rebuilt? (that's a hoot.)
ICF has started to come on the media radar screen here, but I'm afraid the damage has already been done.

[mightyradgumbo]

Sadly,tinyurl has become a vector for many bad viruses. Your hyper link works fine, and thanks.

So. What did you think would happen when you gave Blanco and Nagin 11 billion dollars? Hate to be cynical, but did you expect it to actually end up in re-development? Fire stations? Police stations? Hospitals and clinics? Housing rebuilt? (that's a hoot.)
ICF has started to come on the media radar screen here, but I'm afraid the damage has already been done.

hmmm, didn't know that BB thanks for the heads-up on tinyurl.

Yeah I really did expect to see it in the rebuilding for the road home...call me a dreamer or an optimist but I was hoping that a plan that was divised for something actually completed its intended goal. :mad:
Remember now, I am from Boston, land of the Big Dig-the largest construction project in the history of the modern world. Despite the overruns and the longer than expected completion time, it was finished and the results are tremendously successful so there is hope for anything, IMHO. That said I do have enough cynacism to get pissed off at the mismanagement on ALL levels of the Road Home project.

[ohio]

a bad story getting worse.

[pokerchick66]

Just talked to my mom and I told her to hold on to it for a little while. She didn't get the maximum, though. She got just under the $35,000 so I'm hoping she's one of the ones that didn't get overpaid.

[Cleophus]

Just talked to my mom and I told her to hold on to it for a little while. She didn't get the maximum, though. She got just under the $35,000 so I'm hoping she's one of the ones that didn't get overpaid.

And even if she was "overpaid" she should NOT have to deal with this BS. I hope everything goes OK for her, Pokerchick.

[pokerchick66]

And even if she was "overpaid" she should NOT have to deal with this BS. I hope everything goes OK for her, Pokerchick.

Thanks, babe. Me, too.

[Blitzzzzz]

I can't even read to the end of the article because it makes me so f'n MAD!

I have to agree, but I stuck it out, only to learn that while they prepare to ream the citizens of Louisianna they are using their profits to snuggle up to even larger troughs of govenment slop! The overpayments should come out of their contract, not the suffering homeowners!:cool:

[csoul]

sorry for the long link, the IT nazis have blocked tinyurl.com here

http://www.boston.com/news/nation/articles/2008/03/29/katrina_victims_may_have_to_repay_s/

I'm like you Mightyrad. I try SO hard not to be a cynic. But damn, it's tough! I spent a week in NOLA in early March with a church group doing rebuilding. We spent most of the week gutting a house for a 59 year old mentally handicapped man. He had been living in his house, (with NO WATER, NO ELECTRIC, NO PLUMBING......basically just the shell of a flooded house) for about 18 months.....by himself. The conditions were 3rd world at best. Where are the funds to help someone like this? Truly the neediest among us and he was getting help from volunteers because there was nothing else available to him. Yet, the govt (be it local, state or federal......I don't care who) is wasting millions at a time. Makes it very hard not to be cynical!

[20-20]

I agree 100% with all of the anger, frustration, angst and so on, but for me personally, this is as clear of an example as could be constructed, as to why I am a conservative (don't read republican..I said conservative) and not a liberal.All of us have been duped time and time again in to believing that the "government" (name your brand, big, small, local, national, international, whatever) was the solution to whatever your particular issue was/is. It's not and it's not going to be.Whatever panacea folks is looking for, the odds are that the "government" solutions will most likely benefit lawyers and the legions of bureaucrats in the long run, rather than solving the issue. I suppose if you believe in the "infinite number of monkeys" theory you can hold on and believe that eventually a lawyer/bureaucracy will "make the world a better place", but I hold to the belief that people as individuals, me, you, that person in line in front of you, are the solutions. And we cost less. Just a thought, not a sermon.
O.K. Blitz now you can go ahead and tear me apart!!

[Orleansnj]

The issue is not about government - per say - it's about bad decision-making at every level. period. Does anyone honestly think that FEMA hasn't overpaid someone in California who's home was destroyed in an equally horrific way by a fire or earthquake?

I'm sure FEMA/Gov't (state, local and fed) and individuals have had their hand in this. The difference between this mess and any other is that we, the people, have been watching with intent at how it is being handled and asking the tough questions, not going away, and not being dissuaded.

Take my mother in law, for example, she filled out 17 - yes, seventeen, affidavits after the storm to try to get the one-time $2,300 emergency money payment (she is retired and her house was already paid off). Do you know they showed all 17 documents in the system each time she inquired (in person, mind you - standing in line for a long time) and she NEVER got that money? This is a woman who worked her entire life, built a home with her husband and sent two kids to college on a very modest income. Do you know why she never got that payment? The FEMA worker who entered her information put the home down as her second house. Okay - who in the hell has a second home in the 9th ward by the industrial canal? LOL.

My point is - this has been handled sloppily. Do I think that the person entering the information did that on purpose - heck no....please. But it highlights the inability of the system, handled by multiple people - including volunteers, to accurately handle information to allow for decision-making. Is that possible - YES !!! There have been outstanding examples of organizations (yes, even gov't) that have done this well. Even in the most unlikely of circumstances. But, in order for that to happen - people have to be motivated - and quite frankly, this administration wasn't motivated to help anyone - except itself.
bottom line - this has been screwed up from the beginning and a lot of good people are just getting screwed, time and time, and time again.

[csoul]

I agree 100% with all of the anger, frustration, angst and so on, but for me personally, this is as clear of an example as could be constructed, as to why I am a conservative (don't read republican..I said conservative) and not a liberal.All of us have been duped time and time again in to believing that the "government" (name your brand, big, small, local, national, international, whatever) was the solution to whatever your particular issue was/is. It's not and it's not going to be.Whatever panacea folks is looking for, the odds are that the "government" solutions will most likely benefit lawyers and the legions of bureaucrats in the long run, rather than solving the issue. I suppose if you believe in the "infinite number of monkeys" theory you can hold on and believe that eventually a lawyer/bureaucracy will "make the world a better place", but I hold to the belief that people as individuals, me, you, that person in line in front of you, are the solutions. And we cost less. Just a thought, not a sermon.
O.K. Blitz now you can go ahead and tear me apart!!

I get where your coming from 20/20.......and I'm a big believer in personal responsibility. BUT, I've also been called a "bleeding heart liberal", so you & I will probably never agree 100% on a lot of issues. The bigger picture here, though, is we're supposedly living in the greatest nation on earth. The most civilized, the most developed. We are supposed to be the protectors of human rights. When I see a citizen of the United States, living in absolute squalor, through NO FAULT OF HIS OWN, it makes my blood BOIL. I absolutely believe that somewhere, somehow, there should be a "stop gap" for lack of a better term, so people like this don't just fall through the cracks. NOT IN MY AMERICA. And, as far as I can tell, the rebuilding that has taken place on the Gulf Coast, since the thing, has been almost completely voluteer & individual driven. It's not enough. It was the greatest natural disaster in the history of our country, and more needs to have been done on a governmental level to help those who suffered. Sorry. That's just how I feel. We can "agree to disagree", though.

[saturn]

l.All of us have been duped time and time again in to believing that the "government" (name your brand, big, small, local, national, international, whatever) was the solution to whatever your particular issue was/is. It's not and it's not going to be.Whatever panacea folks is looking for, the odds are that the "government" solutions will most likely benefit lawyers and the legions of bureaucrats in the long run, rather than solving the issue.

You make a good point, but I think making broad statements about "governments" is as inaccurate as liberals who make broad statements about "big business".

The fact of the matter is this: both governments and big business are made up of people, and when things go wrong it is people who are behaving stupidly or unethically that are to blame. When we label governments and/or big business as the culprits, we take the accountability away from where it lies.

We need to demand accountability and create an expectation that the people (individually and in groups) who are supposed to be helping should behave ethically and responsibility.

[csoul]

You make a good point, but I think making broad statements about "governments" is as inaccurate as liberals who make broad statements about "big business".

The fact of the matter is this: both governments and big business are made up of people, and when things go wrong it is people who are behaving stupidly or unethically that are to blame. When we label governments and/or big business as the culprits, we take the accountability away from where it lies.

We need to demand accountability and create an expectation that the people (individually and in groups) who are supposed to be helping should behave ethically and responsibility.

WOW! Well said, Saturn.

[Michelino]

You make a good point, but I think making broad statements about "governments" is as inaccurate as liberals who make broad statements about "big business".

The fact of the matter is this: both governments and big business are made up of people, and when things go wrong it is people who are behaving stupidly or unethically that are to blame. When we label governments and/or big business as the culprits, we take the accountability away from where it lies.

We need to demand accountability and create an expectation that the people (individually and in groups) who are supposed to be helping should behave ethically and responsibility.

Well with the interest of big business so entwined with most government decisions, we still have to make a choice as to whether we will permit this mechanism for siphoning more wealth into the hands of so few to continue... even as the tab for the all debt they have given us to pay looks to bounce across several generations. It used to be that the person who sold water for $20 a gallon after a natural disaster or the loan shark who charged 30% percent interest were considered immoral or even criminal. Now it seems these people are running the country, every corporation...maybe even the world.

But the real problem isn't so much who gets the blame, but who bothers to care. As about 50% of US citizens don't even bother to stop shopping or watching celebrity news long enough to cast one single vote, it's no wonder that corrupt corporate cronyism infects so many level of government.

Maybe it is time to give up on the last narcissistic generation or so, and look to the next one to live up to the traditions and the American dream.

[20-20]

This is what I mean.It is not bad people doing mean things.Not what I think or meant.No one group, person, arm of "government" is the problem.For the most part "government" whatever that implies, means well...it just does not work well since it has grown so large and so many look towards it for relief first not last.Someone help me out with the exact words for the quote that suggests that the "best government is the government that governs least". Something like that. Anyway, some things only the government can accomplish, I concede, but look there last, not first.Their track record stinks.

[RobbieD]

If I got paid 912 million bucks to process applications of people in need, I think I can get it right. The people filled out the applications and got what the probably corrupt contractor deemed appropriate (And thats not counting the 1/3 who are still hoping to get whats they deserve). If the contractor fouled up, it's their problem, they need to take the hit and move on.

Problem is they were counting on all their profits and already spent them so they can't do that. So take it out on the little guy who was counting on their road home money and already spent it. Sounds fair. Gonna be lots bankrupcies and lost houses due to friggin incompetence. When can we say they suffered enough. Although the people I met suffered in good humour, at least.

[jerseygirl67]

If I got paid 912 million bucks to process applications of people in need, I think I can get it right. The people filled out the applications and got what the probably corrupt contractor deemed appropriate (And thats not counting the 1/3 who are still hoping to get whats they deserve). If the contractor fouled up, it's their problem, they need to take the hit and move on.

Problem is they were counting on all their profits and already spent them so they can't do that. So take it out on the little guy who was counting on their road home money and already spent it. Sounds fair. Gonna be lots bankrupcies and lost houses due to friggin incompetence. When can we say they suffered enough. Although the people I met suffered in good humour, at least.

I would agree on being able to get it right. I am curious who the project manager on the entire situation is/was. If I was managing this project and screwed it up this badly, I'd have been fired. No accountability. Regardless of conservative or liberal...that is the bottom line.

[mightyradgumbo]

This is not government gone wrong, per se. This is the contracter of a program gone wrong. This program could have AND should have worked for all qualified recepients.

THE CONTRACTOR f'd this program up. We need to focus on this. They did not overpay these folks...they realized that the payouts cut into their profit so they are now saying folks were overpayed. That is BS.

Now this is where government can make it right. If there are overpayments to people and it was done through no fault of the applicant, then the contractor in charge of paying it out has to bear the cost as a loss. If there was an overpayment through deceit of the applicant, then the government holds the applicant liable and a repayment is ordered!

As far as the government being held in contempt, they should be if there is no repercussion dealt to the incompetent manner that the contracter handles the program. Yes you can say that it took longer than they said it would but as I stated in my previous post, the Big Dig took a lot longer than expected with a higher cost but now it is done and a successful outcome has been reached. In addition, after an audit, some cost overruns dealt unnecessary were paid back by the contractor. These people need resolution, not additional billing by the contracter. This is where the government can really stand the test of the people.

[funkkjunkie]

Katrina and the federal flood of 05 caused a plethora of get it now "contractors" to come out of the woodwork. Many programs were slowed or stopped due to the greediness of the people involved at every level-govt, contractors, workers getting the job done, except the bottom one. I know of a business that would not rehire a trained, knowledgeable person, who happens to be a friend of mine, to continue their contract of trash removal. They hired young, untrained people to save a few hundred dollars a month. These untrained, greedy people had 50 houses razed in New Orleans without permission from the owners before they were discovered.
And that's just one example.

[pokerchick66]

This is not government gone wrong, per se. This is the contracter of a program gone wrong. This program could have AND should have worked for all qualified recepients.

THE CONTRACTOR f'd this program up. We need to focus on this. They did not overpay these folks...they realized that the payouts cut into their profit so they are now saying folks were overpayed. That is BS.



Thank you, Gumbo. You took the words right out of my mouth! lol, and saved me from having to look up, copy and paste. What I want to know is WHY in the hell did ICF (the contractor) send out payments so soon KNOWING some of the applicants were gonna have to pay it back? Why was he under such pressure to do so?

Also, what is going on here:

"The prospect of Road Home grant collections comes less than two weeks after the Louisiana inspector general and the legislative auditor said they were investigating why former Gov. Kathleen Blanco paid ICF an extra $156 million in her waning days in office to administer the program."

[mightyradgumbo]

"The prospect of Road Home grant collections comes less than two weeks after the Louisiana inspector general and the legislative auditor said they were investigating why former Gov. Kathleen Blanco paid ICF an extra $156 million in her waning days in office to administer the program."

The operative words here are 'waning days'. This is when a government official operates at their worst. They do things that on paper look great but are rife with loopholes. So maybe I should retract my blanket absolution of government. As you can see though, the inspector general and the auditor who ARE governmental agents are reviewing the process. I understand they are not the same agents in place during the process but it is obvious government is doing something.

[Blitzzzzz]

O.K. Blitz now you can go ahead and tear me apart!!

"The Government that governs least, governs best."

No need 20-20, the others are doing just fine. I believe in personal responsibility and self-reliance, too. I also believe in collective support when things are beyond the individuals ability to cope. This is such a case, and it is not government, but those that would like to see it fail and those that would exploit it for private gain, that are failing here.:cool:

[pokerchick66]

I understand they are not the same agents in place during the process but it is obvious government is doing something.

That's nice to hear. :)

I sure hope they don't take my mama's money.

[funkkjunkie]

exploit it for private gain. That is the issue in a nutshell, Blittzzzzzzz.

[20-20]

Thanks for the support Blitzzz...or lack thereof...I knew you would be lurking out there somewhere!! Just more thoughts on this that are mine and not necessairly correct.These are all "contractor programs" or contractor failures or whatever label one chooses to apply.The only common threads being that they are funded through tax payers dollars and they failed woefully to accomplish what well intended tasks they were established for.Happens over and over on a daily, dare I say hourly basis.It is only when some series of events take place that put the program, large or small, under a closer inspection by either we as individuals due to it affecting us or someone close to us, or some large scale event...war, famine, pestilance, under-performing schools...name your own experience, that we see the collective weakness and failures of "government".I am not saying that government employees are mean-spirited jerks or that taxpayers are ignorant dupes.And it is too simplistic and non effective to start throwing out republican/democrat labels.I just feel that it is an over-reliance on "government" to solve our individual issues.

[csoul]

Thanks for the support Blitzzz...or lack thereof...I knew you would be lurking out there somewhere!! Just more thoughts on this that are mine and not necessairly correct.These are all "contractor programs" or contractor failures or whatever label one chooses to apply.The only common threads being that they are funded through tax payers dollars and they failed woefully to accomplish what well intended tasks they were established for.Happens over and over on a daily, dare I say hourly basis.It is only when some series of events take place that put the program, large or small, under a closer inspection by either we as individuals due to it affecting us or someone close to us, or some large scale event...war, famine, pestilance, under-performing schools...name your own experience, that we see the collective weakness and failures of "government".I am not saying that government employees are mean-spirited jerks or that taxpayers are ignorant dupes.And it is too simplistic and non effective to start throwing out republican/democrat labels.I just feel that it is an over-reliance on "government" to solve our individual issues.

Still, what is the answer for those who simply cannot help themselves????? Just whither away and die?........

[ScoopJohnD]

.It is only when some series of events take place that put the program, large or small, under a closer inspection by either we as individuals due to it affecting us or someone close to us, or some large scale event...war, famine, pestilance, under-performing schools...name your own experience, that we see the collective weakness and failures of "government".

And unfortunately, by then it is too late. But unlike you I still have faith in the government, (and boy I disagree with them alot, both parties). I see the collective weakness and failures of the citizenship. Somewhere along the line, the people have forgotten that in a democracy they have responsibilities as well. They neglect that it is a government of the people, by the people and think that it is just a government FOR the people.

I haven't lost faith in the good of people. In a crisis they will give as much as they can, in anyway that they can. But I have lost faith in the general public seeing anything beyond the immediate. Of them realizing that all issues go far beyond "How does it affect ME, NOW?" That is of course if they even care about any issues. Everytime I hear or read "I don't watch the news" or "I don't want to read the paper" I want to puke. Because those are the same ones who'll cry the loudest when the problems they ignored come home to roost. And as a result, politicians and government cater to that lowest common demoninator and we will continue to have this.....

Politician 1 : I have a series of long term programs will cure all of societies ills. It will take a while, but it can be done

Politician 2 : Politician 1 will raise your taxes.

Result...........Politician 2 wins.

Government reacts. We still hold the keys. But we have to look at every issue in the long term and examine the big picture. And when we do, when we realize that something across town, or across the state, or on the other side of the country or world, will eventually affect us, when we become more receptive to the fact that many times long term objectives and goals far outweigh the temporary hardships implementing them may cause, government will follow suit.

[jazzykeb]

Well said Scoop. Check out Matt Taibi's column in Rolling Stone. It is available on line.

[breambob]

Still, what is the answer for those who simply cannot help themselves????? Just whither away and die?........

Sadly, this is the way it is for most everyone in the world. It's been that way throughout human history. It's only the rise of liberty, personal property rights, enforced justice, and advancement of equality that we have changed things. That only started a couple of hundred years ago. We have a long way to go. Support your local (and global) democracy.

[20-20]

It has all been well said.I think that were an awful lot of thoughtful, reasoned responses.Oddly enough, for such a potentially divisive conversation, no angry responses.We all wish that it was working more effectively.It's tedious for those of us that have been concerned, involved and I would like to think principled, for low these many decades to see the screamers, schemers and just plain stupid/naive (I know, I know I apologize...Bailiff...whack his pee pee) seem to take command of the landscape.At my church this morning, the message was that, even thought we are most often not aware of it, someone is watching us at every moment.We lead by example, not by words.Our every act is being measured and weighed against all of the other thousands of acts that people observe everyday.Those acts collectively are who and what we both are and what we represent.I guess I am predisposed to believe in personal responsibility.I cannot pave the streets or build the national highway system, I need the government to do that, but here where I live in a sandbar in the Atlantic Ocean, 30 miles from America ,we care for our neighbors when they are sick, or hungry (or drunk!!) or broke, we rebuild our homes when hurricanes or "toides" knock them down, mostly with our own monies and we do all of the other acts of life, mostly devoid of governmental assistance.When government does intercede, it is usually to our detriment, not our advantage.I came here from our nations capitol.That does not make me wiser, just more jaundiced or suspicious.
And as I said earlier...now Blitzz you can tear me apart!!(you cannot help it, being from Anne Arbor it's in your DNA) KICK OUT THE JAMS MF!!! Long live John Sinclair.

[Blitzzzzz]

I came here from our nations capitol.That does not make me wiser, just more jaundiced or suspicious.
And as I said earlier...now Blitzz you can tear me apart!!(you cannot help it, being from Anne Arbor it's in your DNA) KICK OUT THE JAMS MF!!! Long live John Sinclair.

20, That's Ann Arbor, but that's about the largest rise you're gonna get out of me. Sorry, I'm just not feeling it, though I don't accept that the need for personal gain is the sole motivator for efficient performance. Sadly, it is often those who would trash collective action who are reaping the largest rewards from exploiting it.

Tonight I'd rather talk about food. See the new thread I just started, Where are you going to eat THIS year??:cool:

[20-20]

Sorry that you are not up to your feisty self.Hope that you are not under the weather.First night in town is always Galatoire's.That way I have already spent so much money, right out of the gate that I don't have any reason to concern myself with dollars for the rest of the trip.Irene's will be up there shortly thereafter.Bozo's will happen, probably twice.Pascals (spelling?) has snuck into the lineup.Mandinas also probably twice.Acme gets a visit,possibility twice.Port-of-call twice I would guess.We have some openings for new adventures, so the future is bright, if not defined.
Time is getting close...have a great fest you liberal so and so.Sorry, that was gratuitous piling on.